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  1. #61
    Lobo Lair Legend pitforever90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffinthe505 View Post

    I guess there are a few ways to look at it.

    1. Three years ago how did he deal with injury/adversity? Good or bad, it should have provided some ability to learn and and adjust in case it happened again. What were the end results? Answer: Bad

    2. Low and behold, it happened again. Again, how did he deal with it? He had experience and should have had a little more knowledge, skill, etc.
    Did there appear to be any growth and what were the end results? Answer: Bad

    3. What are the odds...it happened, AGAIN! Once more, three years of experience with this VERY specific situation. What were the end results?
    Did there appear to be any growth and what were the end results? Answer: Bad
    I really have no idea where you're coming from with this, as the injuries and rosters aren't the same during those years.

    Lobos adapted to losing Neal in 14/15, as they went 11-6 through the OT heartbreaker in Wyoming on the road. The problem is that was the game in which Goodman didn't even play after the 1st half, and then was shut down for the season 4 games later due to bone spurs in his foot. Then Delaney had the hand injury prior to the MW tournament, which meant that UNM had lost 34 points a game on a team that only averaged 62 per game on the season.

    In 15/16, the adaptation was just to have TW play huge minutes all the time due to losing DW as the sixth man off the bench. That's really all they could do with that roster. Furstinger wasn't ready to contribute much and Scekic flew the coop during the season. Say what you will about the W/L record, but I think Neal played his only card here.

    In 16/17, it's hard to even keep track of all the adjustments they had to make. Brown just played through his injury early in the year, then they had Furstinger start for Williams when he was out with the concussion, had Jefferson/Furstinger start against UNLV when both Kuiper and Williams were out, then switched to the four guard lineup for the remainder of the games prior to SDSU. Unfortunately for UNM, Kuiper and Jefferson had some rocky shooting games during that stretch and teams could harass Brown more with TW out. As for Xavier Adams, I think he's a unique player and UNM just didn't have anything to plug-in there. They lost him and that was it.

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  3. #62
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDamnFans View Post
    Neal hands down has the best shoe collection in the history of Lobo basketball.

    He's the Imelda Marcos of coaches.
    LOl!

  4. #63
    Pack Leader. boingee's Avatar
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    Hey PF90, this is a serious question and only to gain an understanding of where you're coming from. Please answer honestly and not in political speech.

    If Neal weren't the coach of this team and the past 4 years played out the way they have, would you defend any coach the way you are now or is this specifically because you like the guy?

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  6. #64
    Lobo Lair Legend pitforever90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boingee View Post
    If Neal weren't the coach of this team and the past 4 years played out the way they have, would you defend any coach the way you are now or is this specifically because you like the guy?
    Any coach? Hard to say since there are so many possible variables with that. I do give Neal credit for being an important part of the team during the Alford years, and that counts for something in terms of how I view him. I also figured that he would have some on the job learning to do, so there is a difference vs. bringing in a coach that had long term HC experience. Overall though, it's more likely that I would than not.

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    Super Moderator Peacesells's Avatar
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    What it comes down to, imo, is that Coach Neal has all the skills to be a coach and non of the intangibles. Just like some players have all the athletic ability in the world but can put their game together.

    He just can't manage the program. I'll give him plus marks on x's and o's, recruiting and schooling. I give him a minus in management. What you get is a mediocre program with that.

    He would do best to put a mentor on the bench next to him to keep reign on his instinct to wear his emotions on his sleeve. But that probably won't happen because he is a bit of a control freak. You see that in his interactions with his coaches.

    But back to the positives, he is an x's and o'x guy. He was very effective in that role as Alfords 2nd in charge.
    My position as a moderator adds no validity to my opinions. I am a fan just like you and as such when I express a view it represents me and me alone and carries no more weight than any other fan other than the fact that I am always right. (Like everyone else.)

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  9. #66
    Paw Prints LoboDawg's Avatar
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    There are some positives..

    There have been no off the court issues at all.
    Teams academic standing has gotten even better.
    If the school is loyal to him and he turns the ship around, then perhaps maybe Neal will be loyal to us and stick around for along time pending he does turn it around.

    I would really like to see some more experience added to the bench. Maybe an older guy to come in and help manage games and be a mentor to coach.

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  11. #67
    Pack Leader. boingee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitforever90 View Post
    Any coach? Hard to say since there are so many possible variables with that. I do give Neal credit for being an important part of the team during the Alford years, and that counts for something in terms of how I view him. I also figured that he would have some on the job learning to do, so there is a difference vs. bringing in a coach that had long term HC experience. Overall though, it's more likely that I would than not.
    thats fair. thanks for sharing.

  12. #68
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    Here is a (hopefully) somewhat novel approach as to why we might want to keep him:

    Coaching hires are almost by definition a crap shoot. The MWC is a 1 or 2-bid league in most years. Consequently 9 out of 11 MWC teams or 81% will not achieve the goal of reaching the NCAA tourney every year. Nationwide out of 286 non-P5 schools only 34 made the NCAA tournament this year...in other words 88% of all non-P5 schools will be on the outside looking in year in year out.

    Of course those numbers are a bit skewed by some perennial losers, but reality is in sports where you always only have a very limited number of winners and where many of these winners tend to be perennial winners, most coaching hires will turn out to be failures. Even at the best schools I would say the ratio between successful and unsuccessful coaches is something like 1-out of-3 or 33%.

    Translated to UNM I would say that the odds that the next coaching hire will be successful are probably around 20-30%...

    Of course there are two other aspects to this:

    1) What are the chances that Neal will start to be successful at UNM?
    2) Hope springs eternal...and every coach is a new start..which is one of the main drivers for fans flocking to arenas after a coaching change.

    So...

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  14. #69
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Jeffinthe505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitforever90 View Post
    I really have no idea where you're coming from with this, as the injuries and rosters aren't the same during those years.

    Lobos adapted to losing Neal in 14/15, as they went 11-6 through the OT heartbreaker in Wyoming on the road. The problem is that was the game in which Goodman didn't even play after the 1st half, and then was shut down for the season 4 games later due to bone spurs in his foot. Then Delaney had the hand injury prior to the MW tournament, which meant that UNM had lost 34 points a game on a team that only averaged 62 per game on the season.

    In 15/16, the adaptation was just to have TW play huge minutes all the time due to losing DW as the sixth man off the bench. That's really all they could do with that roster. Furstinger wasn't ready to contribute much and Scekic flew the coop during the season. Say what you will about the W/L record, but I think Neal played his only card here.

    In 16/17, it's hard to even keep track of all the adjustments they had to make. Brown just played through his injury early in the year, then they had Furstinger start for Williams when he was out with the concussion, had Jefferson/Furstinger start against UNLV when both Kuiper and Williams were out, then switched to the four guard lineup for the remainder of the games prior to SDSU. Unfortunately for UNM, Kuiper and Jefferson had some rocky shooting games during that stretch and teams could harass Brown more with TW out. As for Xavier Adams, I think he's a unique player and UNM just didn't have anything to plug-in there. They lost him and that was it.
    Where I'm coming from?
    This really isn't that complicated.
    It's the fact that EVERY coach deals with adversity at some level, EVERY year.
    Of course each team is different, has turnover, injury, etc. why do you act as if that is unique to UNM...at any level?

    Ok, let's put this conversation aside for now. Just answer a question for me.

    Going into year 5, what would your expectations of the team be?
    EB is gone, and it is likely there will be 2-4 more leaving the program.

    So, will that be atolerable as an excuse if next year is not successful...or should our coach already know this is part of what happens every year at every program?

    Tell me your minimum expectations.

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  16. #70
    Alpha Wolf AbqLobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboDawg View Post
    There are some positives..

    ....
    I would really like to see some more experience added to the bench. Maybe an older guy to come in and help manage games and be a mentor to coach.
    I heard that from people when Coach Neal first got the job. Some wanted an older ex-head coach type guy to help mentor him for a couple of years. I think that may have been a good idea in retrospect.
    Don't let who you are, keep you from becoming you who want to be!

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  18. #71
    Alpha Lobo red wolf rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbqLobo View Post
    I heard that from people when Coach Neal first got the job. Some wanted an older ex-head coach type guy to help mentor him for a couple of years. I think that may have been a good idea in retrospect.
    .
    wasn't noodles paying attention when alford was running the program?

  19. #72
    Alpha Lobo LSUextreme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitforever90 View Post
    I really have no idea where you're coming from with this, as the injuries and rosters aren't the same during those years.

    Lobos adapted to losing Neal in 14/15, as they went 11-6 through the OT heartbreaker in Wyoming on the road. The problem is that was the game in which Goodman didn't even play after the 1st half, and then was shut down for the season 4 games later due to bone spurs in his foot. Then Delaney had the hand injury prior to the MW tournament, which meant that UNM had lost 34 points a game on a team that only averaged 62 per game on the season.

    In 15/16, the adaptation was just to have TW play huge minutes all the time due to losing DW as the sixth man off the bench. That's really all they could do with that roster. Furstinger wasn't ready to contribute much and Scekic flew the coop during the season. Say what you will about the W/L record, but I think Neal played his only card here.

    In 16/17, it's hard to even keep track of all the adjustments they had to make. Brown just played through his injury early in the year, then they had Furstinger start for Williams when he was out with the concussion, had Jefferson/Furstinger start against UNLV when both Kuiper and Williams were out, then switched to the four guard lineup for the remainder of the games prior to SDSU. Unfortunately for UNM, Kuiper and Jefferson had some rocky shooting games during that stretch and teams could harass Brown more with TW out. As for Xavier Adams, I think he's a unique player and UNM just didn't have anything to plug-in there. They lost him and that was it.
    Neal is still 38-47-1 against the spread over the last 3 years. That is adjusted for your injuries. Yep, still the worst number in the conference over that period. The most underperforming coach, counting injuries, still Craig Neal .

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  21. #73
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Jeffinthe505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitforever90 View Post
    I really have no idea where you're coming from with this, as the injuries and rosters aren't the same during those years.

    Lobos adapted to losing Neal in 14/15, as they went 11-6 through the OT heartbreaker in Wyoming on the road. The problem is that was the game in which Goodman didn't even play after the 1st half, and then was shut down for the season 4 games later due to bone spurs in his foot. Then Delaney had the hand injury prior to the MW tournament, which meant that UNM had lost 34 points a game on a team that only averaged 62 per game on the season.

    In 15/16, the adaptation was just to have TW play huge minutes all the time due to losing DW as the sixth man off the bench. That's really all they could do with that roster. Furstinger wasn't ready to contribute much and Scekic flew the coop during the season. Say what you will about the W/L record, but I think Neal played his only card here.

    In 16/17, it's hard to even keep track of all the adjustments they had to make. Brown just played through his injury early in the year, then they had Furstinger start for Williams when he was out with the concussion, had Jefferson/Furstinger start against UNLV when both Kuiper and Williams were out, then switched to the four guard lineup for the remainder of the games prior to SDSU. Unfortunately for UNM, Kuiper and Jefferson had some rocky shooting games during that stretch and teams could harass Brown more with TW out. As for Xavier Adams, I think he's a unique player and UNM just didn't have anything to plug-in there. They lost him and that was it.

    Pay attention to what's happening right now. Three players gone and more to follow… I'm sure of it. This is no coincidence. The question is, which players?
    That will tell you all you need to know.
    Last edited by Jeffinthe505; 03-20-2017 at 06:36 PM.

  22. #74
    Lobo Dog wildthing's Avatar
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    I missed who the three players that are gone. Thanks

  23. #75
    Wolf LoboLen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildthing View Post
    I missed who the three players that are gone. Thanks
    Who is the 3rd?

    Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

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    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Jeffinthe505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboLen View Post
    Who is the 3rd?

    Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk
    Anthony-Joe-EB

    ADD: Now Geoff Grammer reporting that only Mathis and EB have informed coach they are leaving.
    Last edited by Jeffinthe505; 03-20-2017 at 08:21 PM.

  25. #77
    Lobo Lair Legend pitforever90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffinthe505 View Post
    Where I'm coming from?
    This really isn't that complicated.
    It's the fact that EVERY coach deals with adversity at some level, EVERY year.
    Of course each team is different, has turnover, injury, etc. why do you act as if that is unique to UNM...at any level?

    Ok, let's put this conversation aside for now. Just answer a question for me.

    Going into year 5, what would your expectations of the team be?
    EB is gone, and it is likely there will be 2-4 more leaving the program.

    So, will that be atolerable as an excuse if next year is not successful...or should our coach already know this is part of what happens every year at every program?

    Tell me your minimum expectations.
    Find another team in the MW (or a prior coach at UNM) that matches this for injuries, i.e., something that wasn't under the players control. Not talking about transfers or getting kicked off team for grades/behavior.

    14/15: Losing starting PG and leading returning scorer in game #3, JC power forward tries to play through bone spurs and is shut down 3/4 thru season, losing starting SF and leading scorer/rebounder prior to MW tournament.

    15/16: Losing best player off bench and starting PF from prior season in game #2.

    16/17: 3 players out for 10 days due to concussion during season, losing best player off bench for season in 2nd conference game, losing All-MW power forward for 13 games during conference season.

    As for my expectations in 2017/18, it would be for the team to be competitive in the MW and have a legitimate chance to win the MW tournament. People obsess about the W/L on the Lair, but these days the auto-bid is probably the most important part of the season in the MW now. Don't be too quick to criticize that expectation due to how often people say that the MW is "down". If that's really true, then there's no reason to think that UNM is out of it next year.

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  28. #78
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Jeffinthe505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitforever90 View Post
    Find another team in the MW (or a prior coach at UNM) that matches this for injuries, i.e., something that wasn't under the players control. Not talking about transfers or getting kicked off team for grades/behavior.

    14/15: Losing starting PG and leading returning scorer in game #3, JC power forward tries to play through bone spurs and is shut down 3/4 thru season, losing starting SF and leading scorer/rebounder prior to MW tournament.

    15/16: Losing best player off bench and starting PF from prior season in game #2.

    16/17: 3 players out for 10 days due to concussion during season, losing best player off bench for season in 2nd conference game, losing All-MW power forward for 13 games during conference season.

    As for my expectations in 2017/18, it would be for the team to be competitive in the MW and have a legitimate chance to win the MW tournament. People obsess about the W/L on the Lair, but these days the auto-bid is probably the most important part of the season in the MW now. Don't be too quick to criticize that expectation due to how often people say that the MW is "down". If that's really true, then there's no reason to think that UNM is out of it next year.
    Like I said, you don't get it. That's OK.

    As for your expectation of next year, that has been everybody else's expectation this past year and the prior two years. We haven't even come close.

    Have a good day.

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  30. #79
    Lobo Lair Legend pitforever90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffinthe505 View Post
    Like I said, you don't get it. That's OK.
    Your claim is that it's not unique to UNM. So find the other teams that have that same level of injuries in the MW during the past three years to prove your point.

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    Super Moderator Peacesells's Avatar
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    Injuries have to factor in. You can't discount them. But injuries are not Neal's main issues. Sure it derails things just when you are getting on track but it doesn't explain the lack of consistency needed to win enough.
    My position as a moderator adds no validity to my opinions. I am a fan just like you and as such when I express a view it represents me and me alone and carries no more weight than any other fan other than the fact that I am always right. (Like everyone else.)

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  34. #81
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Jeffinthe505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacesells View Post
    Injuries have to factor in. You can't discount them. But injuries are not Neal's main issues. Sure it derails things just when you are getting on track but it doesn't explain the lack of consistency needed to win enough.
    DING! DING! DING!

    We have a winner, folks!

    It's NOT all abut the injuries...it's also about how a coach adjusts/doesn't adjust, alters scheme's, develops game plans and players, etc.

    That seems to be lacking with this coaching staff. IMO

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  36. #82
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Jeffinthe505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitforever90 View Post
    Your claim is that it's not unique to UNM. So find the other teams that have that same level of injuries in the MW during the past three years to prove your point.
    Like I said, it's not just injuries, it's adversity of many types. CSU comes to mind as they basically lost 1/2 their team.

    Of course, I fully expect you to somehow say that the CSU situation is not comparable and that they were good because they were forced to play a very short rotation so it made them more cohesive thus a better team.

    Like I said, you don't get it. You already have a built in excuse for next year if the team under-performs.

    There are probably, at least, 10 teams in the NCAA that had similar situations (maybe worse) to UNM. Here's a few for ya (this year only)

    OHIO
    Date Pos Player Injury Status
    02/18/17 G James Gollon Undisclosed out for season
    02/18/17 G Khari Harley Undisclosed out for season
    02/18/17 F Wadly Mompremier Undisclosed out for season
    01/20/17 F Antonio Campbell Foot out for season


    OREGON ST
    Date Pos Player Injury Status
    12/16/16 C Cheikh N'diaye Shoulder out indefinitely
    12/16/16 F Keondre Dew Suspension out indefinitely
    01/07/17 F Tres Tinkle Wrist out indefinitely


    SANTA CLARA
    Date Pos Player Injury Status
    12/22/16 F Matt Hubbard Personal has left team
    03/06/17 G KJ Feagin Concussion missed last game, "?"
    02/22/17 G Evan Crawford Abdominal out indefinitely
    02/18/17 F Tony Lewis Foot out for season
    01/27/17 F Jarvis Pugh Foot out indefinitely


    TCU
    12/29/16 F Kouat Noi Eligibility out for season
    03/19/17 G Jaylen Fisher Wrist out for season
    01/03/17 G Malique Trent Personal left the team

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    Lobo Lair Legend pitforever90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacesells View Post
    Injuries have to factor in. You can't discount them. But injuries are not Neal's main issues. Sure it derails things just when you are getting on track but it doesn't explain the lack of consistency needed to win enough.
    What is your own standard for how many wins would be enough for the regular season? I can see an easy way for UNM to have had 19 in the past two season simply by winning at home against Rice/Wyoming and UNLV/SJSU. How many more wins would they need beyond that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffinthe505 View Post
    There are probably, at least, 10 teams in the NCAA that had similar situations (maybe worse) to UNM. Here's a few for ya (this year only)
    Now you need to go back and look at those same teams for the two years prior to that. And then you also need to factor in that they're not MW teams that UNM competes against. CSU lost players from it's bench, yes, but Williams was an All-MW caliber starter. Subtract Omogbo for half the MW season and then you would be closer to losing Williams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pitforever90 View Post
    Find another team in the MW (or a prior coach at UNM) that matches this for injuries, i.e., something that wasn't under the players control. Not talking about transfers or getting kicked off team for grades/behavior.

    14/15: Losing starting PG and leading returning scorer in game #3, JC power forward tries to play through bone spurs and is shut down 3/4 thru season, losing starting SF and leading scorer/rebounder prior to MW tournament.

    15/16: Losing best player off bench and starting PF from prior season in game #2.

    16/17: 3 players out for 10 days due to concussion during season, losing best player off bench for season in 2nd conference game, losing All-MW power forward for 13 games during conference season.

    As for my expectations in 2017/18, it would be for the team to be competitive in the MW and have a legitimate chance to win the MW tournament. People obsess about the W/L on the Lair, but these days the auto-bid is probably the most important part of the season in the MW now. Don't be too quick to criticize that expectation due to how often people say that the MW is "down". If that's really true, then there's no reason to think that UNM is out of it next year.
    It's been this way for a while... and we've lost in the play in game and the opening round game 3 years in a row now. What makes you possibly think this will change next year?

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    Super Moderator Peacesells's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitforever90 View Post
    What is your own standard for how many wins would be enough for the regular season? I can see an easy way for UNM to have had 19 in the past two season simply by winning at home against Rice/Wyoming and UNLV/SJSU. How many more wins would they need beyond that?
    i don't discount injuries but I put them in perpespectice of the whole product. Is the team mentally tough? No. 2nd half collapses 3 years running says so.
    My position as a moderator adds no validity to my opinions. I am a fan just like you and as such when I express a view it represents me and me alone and carries no more weight than any other fan other than the fact that I am always right. (Like everyone else.)

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    I feel next year is a make or break year, Neal has a lot of returning players with experience and some interesting bigs coming in. Gives us 6 bigs 6-9 or bigger, also Logwood, Kuiper and Uguak at 6-7. We have the size and two proven, point guards. Potential scorers from all areas. One go-to maybe not, but this is a team sport.
    When Noodles was hired my wife and I rejoiced, when Cullen signed up we looked at each other and said," oh no".
    Coaching your own kid is difficult and it takes a special coach to be able to do that. Our fears came through.
    When Cullen left, we said okay do-over, but Coach adopted Elijah and it became the same thing all over.
    Thats why next year will be a true gauge of Coach's ability-----no one to cater to. Treat them all alike and success is possible. Just my opinion, looking to see what awaits us.

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    Lobo Lair Legend pitforever90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitwolf83 View Post
    It's been this way for a while... and we've lost in the play in game and the opening round game 3 years in a row now. What makes you possibly think this will change next year?
    I don't know if it will change or not. Remains to be seen. But I think it's probably more important to any coach at UNM in the foreseeable future vs. the W/L record. You can win 25 games and not get a bid now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacesells View Post
    i don't discount injuries but I put them in perpespectice of the whole product. Is the team mentally tough? No. 2nd half collapses 3 years running says so.
    I did a breakdown of UNM's 2016/17 MW games in another thread and long story short: they were leading at halftime almost every game prior to Williams being injured. They also never lost another game when leading at halftime after the UNLV loss at the Pit (5-0 after that L). However, once Williams went out with the injury, they rarely had the lead at halftime anymore. Mostly tied or trailing at half after that. Did they really lose mental toughness, or did they lose a key producer? IMO, it looks more like the latter. I think the team that I would most likely label with lacking mental toughness was the 2015/16 team. That team seemed to lose interest after the controversial SDSU road loss. This year's team actually bounced back from a lot more problems and did NOT lose to Fresno in the tournament because of bad defense or turnovers or lack of effort.

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    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Lobodawg92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOBO-CHAV View Post
    I feel next year is a make or break year, Neal has a lot of returning players with experience and some interesting bigs coming in. Gives us 6 bigs 6-9 or bigger, also Logwood, Kuiper and Uguak at 6-7. We have the size and two proven, point guards. Potential scorers from all areas. One go-to maybe not, but this is a team sport.
    When Noodles was hired my wife and I rejoiced, when Cullen signed up we looked at each other and said," oh no".
    Coaching your own kid is difficult and it takes a special coach to be able to do that. Our fears came through.
    When Cullen left, we said okay do-over, but Coach adopted Elijah and it became the same thing all over.
    Thats why next year will be a true gauge of Coach's ability-----no one to cater to. Treat them all alike and success is possible. Just my opinion, looking to see what awaits us.
    I thought this year was make or break, but it didn't go that way. I think next year is make or explode! LOL
    Go Lobos! Go Nunn! Go Sam! Go Joe!



 

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