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  1. #91
    All Lobo Lair elmassuave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacesells View Post
    Taking away our personal view on the kneeling during the anthem, do you think that if they did as you suggest that as much light would be shining on the subject of their protest?

    Agree or disagree with the vehicle, I don't think that their protesting in any other way would garner the attention it is receiving now. The goal of protest is to be heard. They are being heard that can't be denied. Their message is up for interpretation for sure but it is all most people are talking about.
    The right to assemble peaceful protest is a right, but it is regulated. A permit is required, zoning is required and because the stadiums aren’t all publicly owned those permits would have been denied. There’s a reason pro-Lifers aren’t allowed to protest within the Abortion clinics themselves, they have to remain a set distance away from the entrance, by law!

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  3. #92
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you timvracer's Avatar
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    It makes them feel good, and makes those who already agree with them feel good.

    It's not changing anybody's mind, just more dividing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacesells View Post
    Taking away our personal view on the kneeling during the anthem, do you think that if they did as you suggest that as much light would be shining on the subject of their protest?

    Agree or disagree with the vehicle, I don't think that their protesting in any other way would garner the attention it is receiving now. The goal of protest is to be heard. They are being heard that can't be denied. Their message is up for interpretation for sure but it is all most people are talking about.
    -- timvracer --
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  5. #93
    All Lobo Lair elmassuave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacesells View Post
    Agree or disagree with the vehicle, I don't think that their protesting in any other way would garner the attention it is receiving now. The goal of protest is to be heard. They are being heard that can't be denied. Their message is up for interpretation for sure but it is all most people are talking about.
    In 2012 the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray, they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his blackout to avoid glare and made him take it off.
    In 2013 the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.
    In 2014 Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said “Know Jesus Know Peace” but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.
    In 2015 DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing “Find the Cure” eye black for breast cancer awareness.
    In 2015 William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence. (not that the NFL has a domestic violence problem…)
    In 2016 the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of 5 Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty.
    In 2016 the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11.
    Last year Cam Newtown was briefly benched because of a dress code violation. In 2015 the Cowboys cut 2 players b/c they did not wear suits on a road trip. The teams set the rules for behavior on company time, period.

    So tell me again how the NFL supports free speech and expression all of a sudden…

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  7. #94
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you loboaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacesells View Post
    Taking away our personal view on the kneeling during the anthem, do you think that if they did as you suggest that as much light would be shining on the subject of their protest?

    Agree or disagree with the vehicle, I don't think that their protesting in any other way would garner the attention it is receiving now. The goal of protest is to be heard. They are being heard that can't be denied. Their message is up for interpretation for sure but it is all most people are talking about.
    Initially, I think it would create a lot of attention, and as a sign of unity instead of divisiveness. Then the attention would wear off over time, but so will the attention from kneeling eventually.

    Unfortunately, the players probably don't want Trump to think that he "won", so I doubt they back down, and honestly I can't blame them if they don't want to give Trump the satisfaction. He is a big part of the problem, imo. It's difficult to try to unify, when the leader of the country is incapable of unifying.
    Last edited by loboaddict; 1 Week Ago at 10:48 AM.

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  9. #95
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you dcrowley's Avatar
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    If I can't turn on the TV without someone yelling in my face about racism, xenophobia, fascism, etc. then I'm not going to turn on the TV. I watch sports because I love the athletes regardless of their skin color or any other hot button issue about them. I admire their skill, their strength, and the time they have put in dedicating their life to their profession. I don't like hearing that I'm the problem because I'm white and white privilege, etc. I'm not the problem. TV off. K thx bye.

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  11. #96
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcrowley View Post
    If I can't turn on the TV without someone yelling in my face about racism, xenophobia, fascism, etc. then I'm not going to turn on the TV. I watch sports because I love the athletes regardless of their skin color or any other hot button issue about them. I admire their skill, their strength, and the time they have put in dedicating their life to their profession. I don't like hearing that I'm the problem because I'm white and white privilege, etc. I'm not the problem. TV off. K thx bye.
    definitely your right just as it is theirs to state otherwise - "ain't America great" when/if we all can express ourselves.

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  13. #97
    Super Moderator Peacesells's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmassuave View Post
    The right to assemble peaceful protest is a right, but it is regulated. A permit is required, zoning is required and because the stadiums aren’t all publicly owned those permits would have been denied. There’s a reason pro-Lifers aren’t allowed to protest within the Abortion clinics themselves, they have to remain a set distance away from the entrance, by law!
    Quote Originally Posted by elmassuave View Post
    In 2012 the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray, they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his blackout to avoid glare and made him take it off.
    In 2013 the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.
    In 2014 Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said “Know Jesus Know Peace” but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.
    In 2015 DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing “Find the Cure” eye black for breast cancer awareness.
    In 2015 William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence. (not that the NFL has a domestic violence problem…)
    In 2016 the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of 5 Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty.
    In 2016 the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11.
    Last year Cam Newtown was briefly benched because of a dress code violation. In 2015 the Cowboys cut 2 players b/c they did not wear suits on a road trip. The teams set the rules for behavior on company time, period.

    So tell me again how the NFL supports free speech and expression all of a sudden…
    Neither of these statements have any bearing on what I posted. My contention is that it has been an effective tool. My statement is not condemnation or support for their position. I saying that protesters want to pick the vehicle that best gets their message out there. I think they have done so.

    I also think the NFL could have quashed this is 2 seconds the first time Kap didn't stand for the anthem. But as long as the NFL was willing to let it continue, I would have continued in their position.

    BTW...don't for a second think that the far right and left doesn't want this to continue to be an issue. This has become a power broker battle now. Just a tool for sides to rally their bases on emotion rather than logic. Divide the people...stay in power.
    My position as a moderator adds no validity to my opinions. I am a fan just like you and as such when I express a view it represents me and me alone and carries no more weight than any other fan other than the fact that I am always right. (Like everyone else.)

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  15. #98
    Super Moderator Peacesells's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmassuave View Post
    The right to assemble peaceful protest is a right, but it is regulated. A permit is required, zoning is required and because the stadiums aren’t all publicly owned those permits would have been denied. There’s a reason pro-Lifers aren’t allowed to protest within the Abortion clinics themselves, they have to remain a set distance away from the entrance, by law!
    Quote Originally Posted by elmassuave View Post
    In 2012 the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray, they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his blackout to avoid glare and made him take it off.
    In 2013 the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.
    In 2014 Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said “Know Jesus Know Peace” but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.
    In 2015 DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing “Find the Cure” eye black for breast cancer awareness.
    In 2015 William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence. (not that the NFL has a domestic violence problem…)
    In 2016 the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of 5 Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty.
    In 2016 the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11.
    Last year Cam Newtown was briefly benched because of a dress code violation. In 2015 the Cowboys cut 2 players b/c they did not wear suits on a road trip. The teams set the rules for behavior on company time, period.

    So tell me again how the NFL supports free speech and expression all of a sudden…
    Neither of these statements have any bearing on what I posted. My contention is that it has been an effective tool. My statement is not condemnation or support for their position. I saying that protesters want to pick the vehicle that best gets their message out there. I think they have done so.

    I also think the NFL could have quashed this is 2 seconds the first time Kap didn't stand for the anthem. But as long as the NFL was willing to let it continue, I would have continued in their position.

    BTW...don't for a second think that the far right and left doesn't want this to continue to be an issue. This has become a power broker battle now. Just a tool for sides to rally their bases on emotion rather than logic. Divide the people...stay in power.
    My position as a moderator adds no validity to my opinions. I am a fan just like you and as such when I express a view it represents me and me alone and carries no more weight than any other fan other than the fact that I am always right. (Like everyone else.)

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  17. #99
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Lobo_for_life's Avatar
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    Sure seeing the back-pedaling now. The league and the complicit owners realize how badly they screwed up.

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  19. #100
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you lobodude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loboaddict View Post
    Why can't they take the few minutes to honor the great things about the country?
    That's what many of the players do away from the field. We just never notice them (and, quite frankly, I don't think a lot of fans care). Those good works are usually not publicized outside of their home cities. Those players' gifts of their time, money, spotlight on good causes honor this country much much more than a few minutes standing for the anthem. I would be much more concerned about their love for this country if they all stopped helping those less fortunate than themselves. Most of the guys who are kneeling love their country and what it stands for at its best more than many of those billionaires who are standing and then continue to rip off the middle class and taxpayers after the games.

    ...... But I know most fans just want them to shut up and play ball. Whether the players are good people off the field is not nearly as important to most fans. And this controversy shows it. Many of us are judging players' lives and their worth based solely on whether they kneel or stand, when doing either does not signify whether they are good people.

    .... We should have just let it go when it was just 10 or so guys kneeling and Kap blackballed. It wasn't the players who have made and continue to make this into a big deal. It wasn't the players who have turned this into a make-or-break moment for their dignity.

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  21. #101
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Digital Lobo's Avatar
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    Something about this national anthem controversy has been puzzling me.

    For those that are offended by people kneeling during the national anthem, are they equally as offended or even more offended by people who sit during the national anthem?

    The reason I ask is because presumably most if not all of these folks who are offended have watched many games at home on television. Do they get up off their comfortable couches, love seats or recliners when the national anthem is played?

    If not, why not? It is the same song and the same flag, so why is that different?

    In all my many years of watching football on TV including super bowl parties, sports bars, friends houses, etc. I have never once seen anyone stand for the national anthem that wasn't present in the stadium where the game is being played. Yet that hasn't caused a similar controversy.

    I find that to be a bit of a paradox.

    Carry on.



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  23. #102
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you timvracer's Avatar
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    No paradox, I have always been unhappy when people disrespect the anthem. As with this case, I am not "so" upset that I am in an uproar, I would say my distaste for what the players are doing is on par with my distaste for fans who sit, talk, or leave their hats on for the anthem. I don't like it... but I really don't care all that much either, I just think it's nice during that time when we all unite despite our differences, and I feel bummed when someone takes that away.

    The paradox to me is how assumptions are made about people's motivations based on their viewpoint on this issue and how similar that is to those who would make assumptions about african americans in hoodies and their motivations. Both are wrong.




    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Lobo View Post
    Something about this national anthem controversy has been puzzling me.

    For those that are offended by people kneeling during the national anthem, are they equally as offended or even more offended by people who sit during the national anthem?

    The reason I ask is because presumably most if not all of these folks who are offended have watched many games at home on television. Do they get up off their comfortable couches, love seats or recliners when the national anthem is played?

    If not, why not? It is the same song and the same flag, so why is that different?

    In all my many years of watching football on TV including super bowl parties, sports bars, friends houses, etc. I have never once seen anyone stand for the national anthem that wasn't present in the stadium where the game is being played. Yet that hasn't caused a similar controversy.

    I find that to be a bit of a paradox.

    Carry on.
    -- timvracer --
    "As of Saturday night, it would appear the Mountain West Conference has two NCAA tournament-worthy teams. As long as they can find the remains of one of them."

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  25. #103
    Lobo Lair Legend Professor's Avatar
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    There's no paradox. The players are taking an "in your face" approach versus your friends not making it a scene one way or the other.

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  27. #104
    All Lobo Lair elmassuave's Avatar
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    I don’t know about the specific collective bargaining rules concerning operations but it is my understanding that the CBA does state that individual teams can discipline players for “conduct detrimental to the team” and the application of that term is solely up to the individual teams. The maximum penalty is a 4 game suspension. I would equate standing for the anthem, while in uniform -- representing the team, with other team specific requirements set forth by ownership or the head coach. Similar to penalties for infractions such as missing the team bus/charter, publicly disrespecting the team/coach/players etc.

    Bottom line is simple: the owners are starting to fear a drop in profits, loss of sponsors and PR damage to the league as a whole as well as to each individual team in their local and extended markets. This is exactly what all those folks that threatened to walk away were saying. It is evident that some of this has already started as many fans are refusing to attend or even watch games until the issue is resolved. Many more do not turn on the games until after the anthem/protests are done.

    The networks are the primary income source for the NFL and even some of them have publicly stated they will not air the anthem or the protests. Why? Because they fear a loss of money and need to hang on to advertisers which they use to offset the cost for their NFL game broadcasting deals.

    Viewership has been consistently dropping since the protests started last year and advertisers are starting to see profits drop. If fans start turning on sponsors of the NFL their profits tank and the league’s fate is sealed. Simply put, the pro kneeling stance has no hope of anything that could be considered successful and its continuance will negatively impact the teams, league and even the players themselves. Some of the owners already realize this and it will not be difficult to convince the rest at the meeting next week.

    Keep this in mind, NFL profits is what derives the profit sharing calculation used to derive the Team’s Max Cap.

    Lost NFL revenue = lost cap space = lost potential future player’s income increases.

    So, every player taking a knee is effectively reducing the income the entire NFLPA can expect in the future. And, those players might be under contract now…but what happens when their contract is expired & there is a different player, with a higher character, is equally as good & available? Musical chairs will happen & no one will ever remember their name or their cause.
    Last edited by elmassuave; 5 Days Ago at 08:54 AM. Reason: wording

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  29. #105
    All Lobo Lair elmassuave's Avatar
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    Diddy offers to buy NFL in Twitter rant defending protesting players

    "Of course, despite his zealousness for giving the league a makeover, Diddy would never be able to purchase the entire NFL. For one, that's not how the league works — a different owner or group owns each of the 32 teams and vote to elect the leagues commissioner."

    "An NFL team, on average, costs about $1 billion to purchase...Diddy's net worth is $820 million, according to Forbes."

    Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...icle-1.3556204

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    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you UNMerciful_1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcrowley View Post
    If I can't turn on the TV without someone yelling in my face about racism, xenophobia, fascism, etc. then I'm not going to turn on the TV. I watch sports because I love the athletes regardless of their skin color or any other hot button issue about them. I admire their skill, their strength, and the time they have put in dedicating their life to their profession. I don't like hearing that I'm the problem because I'm white and white privilege, etc. I'm not the problem. TV off. K thx bye.
    No one's saying you're the problem. They're saying there's a problem. Big difference. If you feel that they're speaking directly to you then perhaps you should look inward to figure out why you feel this way and stop deflecting on the protesters. If you don't want to see players protesting you could always do what I do when I go to the movies. I don't like seeing all of the previews so I show up ten minutes later. Problem solved.

  31. #107
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you UNMerciful_1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmassuave View Post
    In 2012 the NFL had an issue with Tim Tebow kneeling for each game to pray, they also had an issue with Tebow wearing John 3:16 as part of his blackout to avoid glare and made him take it off.
    In 2013 the NFL fined Brandon Marshall for wearing green cleats to raise awareness for people with mental health disorders.
    In 2014 Robert Griffin III (RG3) entered a post-game press conference wearing a shirt that said “Know Jesus Know Peace” but was forced to turn it inside out by an NFL uniform inspector before speaking at the podium.
    In 2015 DeAngelo Williams was fined for wearing “Find the Cure” eye black for breast cancer awareness.
    In 2015 William Gay was fined for wearing purple cleats to raise awareness for domestic violence. (not that the NFL has a domestic violence problem…)
    In 2016 the NFL prevented the Dallas Cowboys from wearing a decal on their helmet in honor of 5 Dallas Police officers killed in the line of duty.
    In 2016 the NFL threatened to fine players who wanted to wear cleats to commemorate the 15th anniversary of 9/11.
    Last year Cam Newtown was briefly benched because of a dress code violation. In 2015 the Cowboys cut 2 players b/c they did not wear suits on a road trip. The teams set the rules for behavior on company time, period.

    So tell me again how the NFL supports free speech and expression all of a sudden…
    I'm pretty sure you're right about the shirt, but I honestly don't recall the NFL having a problem with him praying. Maybe some commentators somewhere did, but that's not the NFL.

  32. #108
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Digital Lobo's Avatar
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    Worth watching with an open mind and an open heart.

    Last edited by Digital Lobo; 5 Days Ago at 05:51 PM.



    A mile high and louder than howl


  33. #109
    Alpha Lobo bmccrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNMerciful_1 View Post
    No one's saying you're the problem. They're saying there's a problem. Big difference. If you feel that they're speaking directly to you then perhaps you should look inward to figure out why you feel this way and stop deflecting on the protesters. If you don't want to see players protesting you could always do what I do when I go to the movies. I don't like seeing all of the previews so I show up ten minutes later. Problem solved.
    Not to make light of a very serious issue but really? The previews are my favorite part!

  34. #110
    Donor loborick's Avatar
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    We have four pages of posts on this subject and dozens of tweets from the President, but what about the soldiers killed or the wildfires in California? What is really more important to this board and the President?

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  36. #111
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you ldlbfn's Avatar
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    It'a a heart issue and all the political grandstanding by either side is not going to solve that.

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  38. #112
    Lobo Lair King MichLobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldlbfn View Post
    It'a a heart issue and all the political grandstanding by either side is not going to solve that.
    Here is someone who used heart to try And make a difference.

    https://www.facebook.com/MattOrfVids...8882689106265/

  39. #113
    The Lobo Lair Chosen UNM_ALUM's Avatar
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    http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf...s_who_kne.html

    Let the circus continue. Seems everyone is confused about what's being protested and what's being honored. This has turned into a disaster.

    Was the crowd booing the murdered officer during the moment of silence? Were they booing the act of kneeling by the players? Were the players honoring the murdered officer by kneeling? Were they still protesting the police by kneeling? I'm confused.

  40. #114
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you wallyhopp's Avatar
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    It's sad but really all I'm hearing is, "Don't think. Don't speak. Entertain us black folks. We don't care about your everyday struggles".


    Likely very short sighted of me. but It's becoming clearer that protesting the protestors is a real thing and people will get their way no matter what. The uncomfortable nature and uneasiness is unsettling to so many many, their only copeout is protesting sponsors? That's shutting down the voices of those kneeling without even caring what their message is. But we've turned into a very spoiled "me first" nation. If it doesn't affect us directly, it's considered an inconvenient speed bump.


    Just like booing the "kneelers". To me, that shows more disrespect than anything they have ever done. But they get a pass.
    Last edited by wallyhopp; 2 Days Ago at 06:05 PM.

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    Bottom line no matter what position you have on political protests during the anthem, the players, the coaches, the owners, and the commissioner have tripped all over themselves and bungled the whole meaning of the protests, and have grossly under-estimated fan sentiment. Biggest stupidest and worse orchestrated mishaps in professional sports ever. Everyone top to bottom in the league looks foolish now. Total lack of leadership top to bottom. It's a laughing stock now... too sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallyhopp View Post
    It's sad but really all I'm hearing is, "Don't think. Don't speak. Entertain us black folks. We don't care about your everyday struggles".


    Likely very short sighted of me. but It's becoming clearer that protesting the protestors is a real thing and people will get their way no matter what. The uncomfortable nature and uneasiness is unsettling to so many many, their only copeout is protesting sponsors? That's shutting down the voices of those kneeling without even caring what their message is. But we've turned into a very spoiled "me first" nation. If it doesn't affect us directly, it's considered an inconvenient speed bump.


    Just like booing the "kneelers". To me, that shows more disrespect than anything they have ever done. But they get a pass.
    That first paragraph is a big part of the problem. When we believe the worst about one another it's impossible to have dialogue. For meaningful conversation to happen we must find common ground and really seek to understand each other and empathize instead of finding shelter in what is the same and familiar. It is not comfortable because there are a lot of divisions. That's one reason why sports are amazing. It bridges many gaps and allows us to begin to know each other, see how much we have in common. We must hold fast to our own humanity and resist the urge in our minds to view others as less human.

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    Jaguars apologize to local military for anthem demonstration

    "Jaguars President Mark Lamping sent a letter to the director of military affairs and veterans in Jacksonville saying the team was "remiss in not fully comprehending the effect of the national anthem demonstration on foreign soil has had on the men and women who have or continue to serve our country." The letter was forwarded to Jacksonville Mayor Lenny Curry on Monday and available via his public email."

    http://www.sunherald.com/news/busine...179275571.html

    ------------------------


    CBS earnings to disappoint due to weak NFL ratings, Credit Suisse says

    "The analyst said CBS' Sunday NFL ratings are down 17 percent year over year during the first several weeks of the football season, according to the report. Sheikh released a similar report last week on Twenty-First Century Fox's earnings, which he also expects to disappoint thanks to weaker ratings by the NFL."

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/16/cbs-...isse-says.html

    --------------------


    President Trump on NFL Not Forcing Players to Stand for the Anthem: ‘Total Disrespect to Our Great Country!’

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...06910109356032




    Last edited by elmassuave; 9 Hours Ago at 08:59 AM.

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    I think this horse has been beaten well enough.

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