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  1. #1
    Wolf LoboLen's Avatar
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    Team is emotionally checked out!

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    I hate to say it but tonights game was a huge gut check and we looked absolutely beat most of the 2nd half! Players did not look like they wanted to be out there... I really dont know how Coach Neal makes it through the next 13+ games! His guys look like they quit...

    Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

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    Alpha Wolf toddl18's Avatar
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    I don't think its that they checked out for the season as they do appear to be focused. I do think it has more to do with a lack of confidence or confidence in ones ability that are spurring these issues. That Nevada game lost them this hame as well and the players looked nervous throughout the game. Constantly looking over there shoulders and when the runs happened they lost composure and looked like here we go again.

    Not sure anything outside of winning will cure that though.
    "The secret is to have eight great players and four others who will cheer like crazy." --Jerry Tarkanian

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    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you MacLobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddl18 View Post
    I don't think its that they checked out for the season as they do appear to be focused. I do think it has more to do with a lack of confidence or confidence in ones ability that are spurring these issues. That Nevada game lost them this hame as well and the players looked nervous throughout the game. Constantly looking over there shoulders and when the runs happened they lost composure and looked like here we go again.

    Not sure anything outside of winning will cure that though.
    .
    They've looked like that all season, not just since the Nevada game.

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  8. #4
    Alpha Wolf 18,018's Avatar
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    You guys hit the nail on the head about the teams confidence. Other than maybe Williams, their confidence is absolutely shot. And unfortunately, that's a direct cause of the head coach.

    Neal is a smart guy and an excellent recruiter. Listening to him, it sounds like he knows basketball X's and O's very well, and understands the nuances of positioning, defensive schemes, etc... So why is he struggling so much?

    My opinion - He's just an emotional coach. He wears his feelings on his sleeves and he's quick to react to things. When a player screws up, they immediately worry about being pulled or criticized. Just watch the face of someone like Logwood. Emotional coaching can do wonders for a team on a hot streak. Players can play loose and enjoy themselves and they can sink shots from half court with ease. But when the losing starts, it can spiral away from them in the same manner. Suddenly every shot feels heavy, and you start thinking about what play the coach called and exactly where you need to stand or pass the ball... Not WHY the play was called or the idea behind it. That's where we are.

    The biggest difference between Alford and Neal (and the reason why we were successful under one and not the other) isn't their game knowledge, or their tempo philosophies or anything like that. It's their demeanor. Alford never crossed his arms on the sideline. If a player missed 10 shots in a row, but hustled their butt off and played tough D, they never worried about what the coach would do to them (Hell PMac shot less than 30% for an entire year and still go 30+ minutes a game - because he was a lock down defender and played his butt off for loose balls and screens etc...). Alford exuded confidence on the sideline, and the team sucked that up. When things are going well, Neal is smiling, laughing, and high-fiving his players, and they are throwing alley-oops that make us look like world-beaters. When things are going rough, he looks worried and nervous, and our guys either defer to EB to jack up an ill advised shot 4 seconds into the shot clock, or pass around until someone takes a desperate heave with 4 seconds left.

    It's not really something Neal can change without changing who he is as a person, and it's not even really fair for us to expect it of him. But I don't think it's a quality that can equate to long-term success. At least not at UNM. We need someone like Bob Davie or Alford or Bliss or Rocky. An all business, slightly boring, no frills coach. The Pit and the characters we have in our fan base can provide the emotion. Emotional coaches like Fraschilla or Neal simply don't really workout here.

    Just my opinion. Go lobos!


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    Donor wolf1960's Avatar
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    fans need to support the players 100% when players are introduced stand and go crazy for each one.. when a sub comes in how about a standing ovation for the player. All this is not their fault... they are Lobos !! I still believe >wolf1960

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  11. #6
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you loboaddict's Avatar
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    I wish the fans would stop booing. I know the boos are mostly directed at Coach Neal, but the players might not know that. The players don't deserve to be booed.


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    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you jbarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loboaddict View Post
    I wish the fans would stop booing. I know the boos are mostly directed at Coach Neal, but the players might not know that. The players don't deserve to be booed.
    I don't like to hear booing. Unfortunately, it is the result of at least 3 years of frustration that is finally coming to a head.

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  14. #8
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    I watched an emotional coach named Bruce Pearl the other day. He seemed to give only positive emotion to his team applauding effort and directed everything negative to the refs. Really exuded that he was part of the team vs Neal's brooding to attacking demeanor on his own players. Just an observation.

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  16. #9
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18,018 View Post
    You guys hit the nail on the head about the teams confidence. Other than maybe Williams, their confidence is absolutely shot. And unfortunately, that's a direct cause of the head coach.

    Neal is a smart guy and an excellent recruiter. Listening to him, it sounds like he knows basketball X's and O's very well, and understands the nuances of positioning, defensive schemes, etc... So why is he struggling so much?


    My opinion - He's just an emotional coach. He wears his feelings on his sleeves and he's quick to react to things. When a player screws up, they immediately worry about being pulled or criticized. Just watch the face of someone like Logwood. Emotional coaching can do wonders for a team on a hot streak. Players can play loose and enjoy themselves and they can sink shots from half court with ease. But when the losing starts, it can spiral away from them in the same manner. Suddenly every shot feels heavy, and you start thinking about what play the coach called and exactly where you need to stand or pass the ball... Not WHY the play was called or the idea behind it. That's where we are.

    The biggest difference between Alford and Neal (and the reason why we were successful under one and not the other) isn't their game knowledge, or their tempo philosophies or anything like that. It's their demeanor. Alford never crossed his arms on the sideline. If a player missed 10 shots in a row, but hustled their butt off and played tough D, they never worried about what the coach would do to them (Hell PMac shot less than 30% for an entire year and still go 30+ minutes a game - because he was a lock down defender and played his butt off for loose balls and screens etc...). Alford exuded confidence on the sideline, and the team sucked that up. When things are going well, Neal is smiling, laughing, and high-fiving his players, and they are throwing alley-oops that make us look like world-beaters. When things are going rough, he looks worried and nervous, and our guys either defer to EB to jack up an ill advised shot 4 seconds into the shot clock, or pass around until someone takes a desperate heave with 4 seconds left.

    It's not really something Neal can change without changing who he is as a person, and it's not even really fair for us to expect it of him. But I don't think it's a quality that can equate to long-term success. At least not at UNM. We need someone like Bob Davie or Alford or Bliss or Rocky. An all business, slightly boring, no frills coach. The Pit and the characters we have in our fan base can provide the emotion. Emotional coaches like Fraschilla or Neal simply don't really workout here.

    Just my opinion. Go lobos!
    Interesting take. I don't know if I agree with it or not but while just a speculation and opinion, it is as good of an explanation as I have heard & is certainly not the same unintelligent, its all coach's fault - he doesn't know anything, anybody on earth other than him knows better, coach sucks, if only he did what I tell him stuff we are seeing here over & over. Thanks for actually thinking.

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  18. #10
    Alpha Lobo LoboKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolf1960 View Post
    fans need to support the players 100% when players are introduced stand and go crazy for each one.. when a sub comes in how about a standing ovation for the player. All this is not their fault... they are Lobos !! I still believe >wolf1960
    I saw fans do this for Dane, but they also booed when Logwood came in. So...



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    "its all coach's fault " is not unintelligent at all.

    it is the 100 percent truth.

    This is all on the coach, period. He is in charge. He is responsible for everything they do and do not do.

    This is the result of the atmosphere of the program he has established. Players don't do what he says, don't get it to the right people, don't put out effort. It is the atmosphere of the organization he is in charge of. That goes back at least to the 2nd season with the first exposure of the issue being the defense being literally laughably bad playing man to man the second year, and him not demanding then the work and discipline required. 2.5 year pattern of underperfomance and collapsing seasons , not just games. If it's not on the coach, then these players are significantly overrated , and since the coach is charge of recruiting them, its still on him.

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  22. #12
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you jbarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboKnight View Post
    I saw fans do this for Dane, but they also booed when Logwood came in. So...
    I did not hear the booing of Sam, but if it happened it is wrong in my opinion. I think most everyone will agree that Sam has the physical tools to be a good player. I think he has shown flashes of being good but I recognize they have been few and far between. At the end of the day, these are just college kids and I don't think booing them is right. I am sure that Sam is as frustrated, and I suspect he is much more frustrated, than us fans are. He is struggling big time and booing him isn't going to help him or the team.

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  24. #13
    Wolf LoboofLondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18,018 View Post
    You guys hit the nail on the head about the teams confidence. Other than maybe Williams, their confidence is absolutely shot. And unfortunately, that's a direct cause of the head coach.

    Neal is a smart guy and an excellent recruiter. Listening to him, it sounds like he knows basketball X's and O's very well, and understands the nuances of positioning, defensive schemes, etc... So why is he struggling so much?

    My opinion - He's just an emotional coach. He wears his feelings on his sleeves and he's quick to react to things. When a player screws up, they immediately worry about being pulled or criticized. Just watch the face of someone like Logwood. Emotional coaching can do wonders for a team on a hot streak. Players can play loose and enjoy themselves and they can sink shots from half court with ease. But when the losing starts, it can spiral away from them in the same manner. Suddenly every shot feels heavy, and you start thinking about what play the coach called and exactly where you need to stand or pass the ball... Not WHY the play was called or the idea behind it. That's where we are.

    The biggest difference between Alford and Neal (and the reason why we were successful under one and not the other) isn't their game knowledge, or their tempo philosophies or anything like that. It's their demeanor. Alford never crossed his arms on the sideline. If a player missed 10 shots in a row, but hustled their butt off and played tough D, they never worried about what the coach would do to them (Hell PMac shot less than 30% for an entire year and still go 30+ minutes a game - because he was a lock down defender and played his butt off for loose balls and screens etc...). Alford exuded confidence on the sideline, and the team sucked that up. When things are going well, Neal is smiling, laughing, and high-fiving his players, and they are throwing alley-oops that make us look like world-beaters. When things are going rough, he looks worried and nervous, and our guys either defer to EB to jack up an ill advised shot 4 seconds into the shot clock, or pass around until someone takes a desperate heave with 4 seconds left.

    It's not really something Neal can change without changing who he is as a person, and it's not even really fair for us to expect it of him. But I don't think it's a quality that can equate to long-term success. At least not at UNM. We need someone like Bob Davie or Alford or Bliss or Rocky. An all business, slightly boring, no frills coach. The Pit and the characters we have in our fan base can provide the emotion. Emotional coaches like Fraschilla or Neal simply don't really workout here.

    Just my opinion. Go lobos!

    I agree with all of this except your last point! Stormin Norman was as flashy as it gets and nobody has topped the success and the electricity that was present during that time IMO.

    Your Neal assessment is spot on. I just feel he is super negative with the team. But not in a Bobby Knight kick you ass sort of way. Just in a negative "screw this" way. I think he would excel as a coach at a program with little to know history. I think he can coach. He just can't coach here. too much pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboofLondon View Post
    I agree with all of this except your last point! Stormin Norman was as flashy as it gets and nobody has topped the success and the electricity that was present during that time IMO.

    Your Neal assessment is spot on. I just feel he is super negative with the team. But not in a Bobby Knight kick you ass sort of way. Just in a negative "screw this" way. I think he would excel as a coach at a program with little to know history. I think he can coach. He just can't coach here. too much pressure.
    Agreed on Stormin Norman. I was just a kid but wow, those were PIT games. Nothing has come close to that atmosphere.

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    Alpha Wolf 18,018's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboofLondon View Post
    I agree with all of this except your last point! Stormin Norman was as flashy as it gets and nobody has topped the success and the electricity that was present during that time IMO.

    Your Neal assessment is spot on. I just feel he is super negative with the team. But not in a Bobby Knight kick you ass sort of way. Just in a negative "screw this" way. I think he would excel as a coach at a program with little to know history. I think he can coach. He just can't coach here. too much pressure.
    Unfortunately, I wasn't around during that golden age of Lobo BBall, and I never got to experience a Pit crowd larger than 18,018 (although my dad is sure to tell me stories of them every chance he gets), so I can't really offer up a slam-dunk argument to that.

    I can certainly say that a lot has probably changed since then, though. Are kids more emotionally fragile these days? Debatable. Is the eye of the media (and the fans) much more invasive these days? I'd say so. Maybe that doesn't have anything to do with why a flashy or emotional coach would be less successful today then they were before, but I think it might.

    All I can really go off of is what I see this year and the last few under Neal. Our team is talented, and when the guys play loose and 'happy', we score 100 points with alley oops and behind the back passes. We look GOOD sometimes. Like, NCAA top 25 good. But when we start to fumble for even a minute, our team, and most importantly - our coach, looks crushed. We look scared. Confused.

    I liken it to Neal's press conferences. He's given some great ones. When things are going well, he gets excited. Makes jokes, talks about unfinished business and winning championships and joking about what crazy cowboy hats X is wearing, and we eat it up. You guys know what the press conferences are like when things are NOT going well. Alford, Bliss, Davie, Rocky... well, they aren't exactly entertaining press conferences one way or the other, but maybe that's for the better.

    I wish Neal was successful here, cause it would be a ton of fun. Maybe like Stormin' Norman fun. The Pit would eat that crap up, and I would love every second of it. But in my 25 years of attending games, I haven't seen a reason to think that a high intensity/emotion coach is anything more than a trap.

    But I'm open to being proved wrong!

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  30. #16
    Alpha Lobo LoboKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbarr View Post
    I did not hear the booing of Sam, but if it happened it is wrong in my opinion. I think most everyone will agree that Sam has the physical tools to be a good player. I think he has shown flashes of being good but I recognize they have been few and far between. At the end of the day, these are just college kids and I don't think booing them is right. I am sure that Sam is as frustrated, and I suspect he is much more frustrated, than us fans are. He is struggling big time and booing him isn't going to help him or the team.
    They were happy when Sam got his second foul. It has become surreal where I sit. People use to shout 'Whose that!' when the other teams players were introduced. None of that last night. During the intro video people were sitting and standing. Most were not paying attention to the video or cheering. The cheerleader that came up the stairs near my row was trying to help add to the atmosphere and get people pumped. Most fans ignored her. Then as players for UNM were introduced people were still not really paying attention. No clapping or cheering. The feeling I got was people just wanted the game to start. I don't think it helped that the music played to hype the crowd up at the start of the game was turned down. Overall the crowd seemed subdued at the start.



  31. #17
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you JulieG's Avatar
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    Looks to me like Sam has moved to whipping person on this team. He may not be doing what we expected out of him and he was starting way too long, which is not his fault. Booing a player should not happen and it damn sure should not happen here. Of course, if no one in newspaper, on the radio or personally steps up our entitled folks will continue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpal View Post
    Agreed on Stormin Norman. I was just a kid but wow, those were PIT games. Nothing has come close to that atmosphere.
    correct !! it was THE PIT the hardest and loudest basketball arena to come in and beat the Lobos... We were yelling for 100 points and Norm was stormin the sidelines
    it is NOW wisepies arena aka pit.. visitor friendly to sink 3 point shots !

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    Quote Originally Posted by JulieG View Post
    Looks to me like Sam has moved to whipping person on this team. He may not be doing what we expected out of him and he was starting way too long, which is not his fault. Booing a player should not happen and it damn sure should not happen here. Of course, if no one in newspaper, on the radio or personally steps up our entitled folks will continue.
    The booing is definitely not OK . He has been so bad the last 10 games (after a hot start offensively) that every aspect of his game is below the players behind him. Coach sees it, played him only five minutes. He had to have noticed that the 14 point lead quickly evaporated when he subbed Sam in for Dane. The damage to momentum was done in only 5 minutes.

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    That really is a great observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikexom View Post
    I watched an emotional coach named Bruce Pearl the other day. He seemed to give only positive emotion to his team applauding effort and directed everything negative to the refs. Really exuded that he was part of the team vs Neal's brooding to attacking demeanor on his own players. Just an observation.
    Remember when Bruce Pearl and Neal went head to head? Just another P5 smackdown.

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    We did hear some boos and some people directly calling out Neal. But we make it a point to applaud and cheer for every player as they come in or leave the game. Its beyond incomprehensible that our progam had fallen so far that "fans" lay the blame of the teams troubles on a player or two.

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    I am actually glad I can't make it to any more games. The booing of our players and coach, regardless of the situation, is reprehensible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred1958 View Post
    We did hear some boos and some people directly calling out Neal. But we make it a point to applaud and cheer for every player as they come in or leave the game. Its beyond incomprehensible that our progam had fallen so far that "fans" lay the blame of the teams troubles on a player or two.
    If this is actually happening, I hope other hometown fans are doing all they can to shut these people up. To boo your own players is devoid of class, and idiotic. We might need to be re-recruiting these players at the end of this season. They will remember if fans boo them.

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    Yeah, I too was there during the PIT years, and yes, Norm had it going on until he didn't. Different era, younger fans who have since grown older, Pit got smaller and corporate. Nice to remember. We can still be formidable, but it starts with the team, the fans will back them up when they see effort and results. Oh yes, the fans are emotionally checked out too.
    Last edited by xanthos93; 01-12-2017 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmdave View Post
    I am actually glad I can't make it to any more games. The booing of our players and coach, regardless of the situation, is reprehensible.
    Neal has referenced some of the things being said. He hears them, despite what he says in the pressers. That would affect anyone's attitude/ demeanor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 18,018 View Post
    You guys hit the nail on the head about the teams confidence. Other than maybe Williams, their confidence is absolutely shot. And unfortunately, that's a direct cause of the head coach.

    Neal is a smart guy and an excellent recruiter. Listening to him, it sounds like he knows basketball X's and O's very well, and understands the nuances of positioning, defensive schemes, etc... So why is he struggling so much?

    My opinion - He's just an emotional coach. He wears his feelings on his sleeves and he's quick to react to things. When a player screws up, they immediately worry about being pulled or criticized. Just watch the face of someone like Logwood. Emotional coaching can do wonders for a team on a hot streak. Players can play loose and enjoy themselves and they can sink shots from half court with ease. But when the losing starts, it can spiral away from them in the same manner. Suddenly every shot feels heavy, and you start thinking about what play the coach called and exactly where you need to stand or pass the ball... Not WHY the play was called or the idea behind it. That's where we are.

    The biggest difference between Alford and Neal (and the reason why we were successful under one and not the other) isn't their game knowledge, or their tempo philosophies or anything like that. It's their demeanor. Alford never crossed his arms on the sideline. If a player missed 10 shots in a row, but hustled their butt off and played tough D, they never worried about what the coach would do to them (Hell PMac shot less than 30% for an entire year and still go 30+ minutes a game - because he was a lock down defender and played his butt off for loose balls and screens etc...). Alford exuded confidence on the sideline, and the team sucked that up. When things are going well, Neal is smiling, laughing, and high-fiving his players, and they are throwing alley-oops that make us look like world-beaters. When things are going rough, he looks worried and nervous, and our guys either defer to EB to jack up an ill advised shot 4 seconds into the shot clock, or pass around until someone takes a desperate heave with 4 seconds left.

    It's not really something Neal can change without changing who he is as a person, and it's not even really fair for us to expect it of him. But I don't think it's a quality that can equate to long-term success. At least not at UNM. We need someone like Bob Davie or Alford or Bliss or Rocky. An all business, slightly boring, no frills coach. The Pit and the characters we have in our fan base can provide the emotion. Emotional coaches like Fraschilla or Neal simply don't really workout here.

    Just my opinion. Go lobos!
    When it comes down to it, Neal is a hell of an assistant coach but he is not a head coach. Head coaches, such as Nevada's coach, have multiple game plans and can change tactics multiple times during a game. Neal is very much a pupil of Alford: both are stubborn about their game plans and rarely change it up it seems to try and prove they can win with their tactics. Even when the wheels are coming off, they won't change what they are doing.

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    Disagree as far as defense goes. There is a ton of switching. His substitution had been stuck, but lately has changed. It may not be what everyone wants, but I think it is the part of coaching that has changed the most. As to his offense you may have something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clubmaker View Post
    "its all coach's fault " is not unintelligent at all.

    it is the 100 percent truth.

    This is all on the coach, period. He is in charge. He is responsible for everything they do and do not do.

    This is the result of the atmosphere of the program he has established. Players don't do what he says, don't get it to the right people, don't put out effort. It is the atmosphere of the organization he is in charge of. That goes back at least to the 2nd season with the first exposure of the issue being the defense being literally laughably bad playing man to man the second year, and him not demanding then the work and discipline required. 2.5 year pattern of underperfomance and collapsing seasons , not just games. If it's not on the coach, then these players are significantly overrated , and since the coach is charge of recruiting them, its still on him.
    its almost never all one person's fault when dealing with a group endeavor so yes, IMO it is not an intelligent position. If one were to say that as the person in charge, he is responsible for the results, I would agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 18,018 View Post
    You guys hit the nail on the head about the teams confidence. Other than maybe Williams, their confidence is absolutely shot. And unfortunately, that's a direct cause of the head coach.

    Neal is a smart guy and an excellent recruiter. Listening to him, it sounds like he knows basketball X's and O's very well, and understands the nuances of positioning, defensive schemes, etc... So why is he struggling so much?

    My opinion - He's just an emotional coach. He wears his feelings on his sleeves and he's quick to react to things. When a player screws up, they immediately worry about being pulled or criticized. Just watch the face of someone like Logwood. Emotional coaching can do wonders for a team on a hot streak. Players can play loose and enjoy themselves and they can sink shots from half court with ease. But when the losing starts, it can spiral away from them in the same manner. Suddenly every shot feels heavy, and you start thinking about what play the coach called and exactly where you need to stand or pass the ball... Not WHY the play was called or the idea behind it. That's where we are.

    The biggest difference between Alford and Neal (and the reason why we were successful under one and not the other) isn't their game knowledge, or their tempo philosophies or anything like that. It's their demeanor. Alford never crossed his arms on the sideline. If a player missed 10 shots in a row, but hustled their butt off and played tough D, they never worried about what the coach would do to them (Hell PMac shot less than 30% for an entire year and still go 30+ minutes a game - because he was a lock down defender and played his butt off for loose balls and screens etc...). Alford exuded confidence on the sideline, and the team sucked that up. When things are going well, Neal is smiling, laughing, and high-fiving his players, and they are throwing alley-oops that make us look like world-beaters. When things are going rough, he looks worried and nervous, and our guys either defer to EB to jack up an ill advised shot 4 seconds into the shot clock, or pass around until someone takes a desperate heave with 4 seconds left.

    It's not really something Neal can change without changing who he is as a person, and it's not even really fair for us to expect it of him. But I don't think it's a quality that can equate to long-term success. At least not at UNM. We need someone like Bob Davie or Alford or Bliss or Rocky. An all business, slightly boring, no frills coach. The Pit and the characters we have in our fan base can provide the emotion. Emotional coaches like Fraschilla or Neal simply don't really workout here.

    Just my opinion. Go lobos!
    This post is the most thought out, logical, and best expressed sentiment regarding the current Lobo Basketball situation I've seen on this site.

    I agree with you 100%, thanks for posting!

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