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  1. #1
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you timvracer's Avatar
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    Pro Neal Position Thread

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    I have heard many folks (some Neal supporters) say "He is probably gone after next year anyhow".

    So how can you support, objectively, keeping him this year? On an objective basis, it seems that having a "lame duck" coach only hurts us in recruiting and revenues for the subsequent year.

    I personally think the reason to keep Neal is if one believes he can turn it around and be the future of this program.

    So I ask... who believes that Neal is the future of this program? If not, given the current situation, what is the objective reason based in the good of the University and Program for keeping him? (and yes, I understand we don't get a vote, this is a discussion board)

    I've heard ad nauseum why he should go... so why should he stay? (Let's see if we can get a position without it being about slamming other posters views). PLEASE include why you feel he is a good coach - what are the values he brings?

    NOTE: I asked this question last year, and those who supported Neal felt that the Cullen issue was a major distraction, and they really wanted to see what he could do without that distraction. I think I said that as well, even though I was torn, I acknowledged it could make a big difference. I also recall Neal's ability to recruit as another key factor in those who wanted him to stay.

    I'd like to avoid just a few items he does well, such as "great grades and no off court issues" unless you truly believe that is why we should keep him (and that is a valid point of view, not shared by many, but it is totally fair if one thinks ultimately that is the most important thing and it is worth keeping a coach who has delivered on that front).

    PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS EITHER WAY (let's see how long that lasts)
    Last edited by timvracer; 03-19-2017 at 11:42 AM.
    -- timvracer --
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  3. #2
    Alpha Lobo LoboKnight's Avatar
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    This feels like a loaded set of questions.



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    Lobo Lair King ThreePointShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timvracer View Post
    I have heard many folks (some Neal supporters) say "He is probably gone after next year anyhow".

    So how can you support, objectively, keeping him this year? (let's see how long that lasts)
    From my perspective there's a huge difference between supporting the decision to keep him vs. supporting the program after the decision has been made. I'm a supportive fan through thick and thin. Whoever the coach is, the program will do better with fan support than without, and I'm all about the program. I'm not going to argue why he should stay. I'm not privy to all the details that Paul Krebs is. I'm just hoping that Neal will provide tangible results next year that justify the decision to keep him on.


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    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Lobo_for_life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreePointShot View Post
    From my perspective there's a huge difference between supporting the decision to keep him vs. supporting the program after the decision has been made. I'm a supportive fan through thick and thin. Whoever the coach is, the program will do better with fan support than without, and I'm all about the program. I'm not going to argue why he should stay. I'm not privy to all the details that Paul Krebs is. I'm just hoping that Neal will provide tangible results next year that justify the decision to keep him on.
    So are you in favor of the decision to retain him for next year, or not?

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  9. #5
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Gonzlobo's Avatar
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    I thought he did an ok job of managing his 2 PGs this past season. Of course there were some instances where he should've played both at the same time.

    That's all I have that's positive.
    $golly

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  11. #6
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you timvracer's Avatar
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    that's a very fair position. You are basically saying whatever decision "they" make, once it is made you will support it as part of the program.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreePointShot View Post
    From my perspective there's a huge difference between supporting the decision to keep him vs. supporting the program after the decision has been made. I'm a supportive fan through thick and thin. Whoever the coach is, the program will do better with fan support than without, and I'm all about the program. I'm not going to argue why he should stay. I'm not privy to all the details that Paul Krebs is. I'm just hoping that Neal will provide tangible results next year that justify the decision to keep him on.
    -- timvracer --
    "As of Saturday night, it would appear the Mountain West Conference has two NCAA tournament-worthy teams. As long as they can find the remains of one of them."

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  13. #7
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you timvracer's Avatar
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    what is loaded about it? It's pretty simple, if you support keeping Neal, why? And if your agree that he is likely a lame duck, then I am really interested in why. I have heard mostly people arguing against those who are complaining about Neal, but have not heard a lucid argument specifically as to why we should retain him.

    If it's loaded because it is very hard to make such an argument, well... enough said.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoboKnight View Post
    This feels like a loaded set of questions.
    -- timvracer --
    "As of Saturday night, it would appear the Mountain West Conference has two NCAA tournament-worthy teams. As long as they can find the remains of one of them."

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  15. #8
    Lobo Lair Legend Clubmaker's Avatar
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    He almost has to be called a lame duck by many. If not, it makes it really difficult for many to argue against boycotting to prevent 2 or more years of Neal under performance.

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    Alpha Lobo bmccrack's Avatar
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    Racer, prove to me how this thread is productive given that when 3/31 rolls around Craig Neal will still be the Head Men's Basketball Coach at UNM? Nothing new is being added to the discussion. Most everyone's points are on the fifth go around or more. Do you feel like if the Regents just knew HOW MUCH you want Craig gone something will change?

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  18. #10
    Wise Wolf Bradpal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreePointShot View Post
    From my perspective there's a huge difference between supporting the decision to keep him vs. supporting the program after the decision has been made. I'm a supportive fan through thick and thin. Whoever the coach is, the program will do better with fan support than without, and I'm all about the program. I'm not going to argue why he should stay. I'm not privy to all the details that Paul Krebs is. I'm just hoping that Neal will provide tangible results next year that justify the decision to keep him on.
    This.

    I support the program and have for 40 years. To be clear I would not have retained Neal based upon the basketball results. I don't know what else went into the decision although I can guess. Since I am not the decision maker and I support UNM the institution and the athletic programs, I don't believe that pulling support from UNM or from the athletic programs is the appropriate thing to do. I think fans walking away from UNM or the athletic department will do far more long term harm than good. I will continue my donations and continue to support football and basketball by buying season tickets. I may not make the same effort to attend basketball games based upon what I am seeing but I will have the tickets and will offer those tickets to others if I am not attending.

    I do believe that Neal keeping a program clean from academic and other issues is a positive. It could be a lot worse as we have seen in the past. McKay was leaving a much worse program than what Neal currently has in place. I also don't think that the AD not the university will go on past next year without some marked improvement on the court. Change will be made without me contributing to a poison pill.

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  20. #11
    Lobo Lair King MichLobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmccrack View Post
    Racer, prove to me how this thread is productive given that when 3/31 rolls around Craig Neal will still be the Head Men's Basketball Coach at UNM? Nothing new is being added to the discussion. Most everyone's points are on the fifth go around or more. Do you feel like if the Regents just knew HOW MUCH you want Craig gone something will change?
    What do you expect people to say after 4 going on 5 years of this garbage? This is what the program is right now. If you are tired of reading about it then stop reading about it. As long as Neal is here this is what it is and this board is about Lobo basketball so people are going to talk about it on here.

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  22. #12
    Wolf LoboLen's Avatar
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    I too try not to get into all the details of why UNM decided to keep him. That is out of my control. My perspective on Neal is: Seems like a decent enough person who has a ton of responsibility and is dealing with alot of pressures that thankfully alot of us dont. Personally I thought he matured a bit this season as the head man which suggests that hes still learning on the job. Unfortunately his salary is a bit hard to justify for a 1st time head man which in itself creates big time expectations from us as fans. The past 3 years have been difficult to watch in regards to alot of inconsistent play from our team which in my opinion is a result of a coach still learning what to do or not do. I "expect" further maturation from him as a coach this next season but will that result in more wins? Not sure but it is my belief that you cannot support the players/program without supporting the coach because they go hand in hand. How silly is it to say I want the players and program to do well but I want the coach to fail? Long story short CN is here another year so I support both HIM and the players and the program. If he fails miserably and loses his job the next coach gets my support.

    Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

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  24. #13
    Alpha Lobo bmccrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichLobo View Post
    What do you expect people to say after 4 going on 5 years of this garbage? This is what the program is right now. If you are tired of reading about it then stop reading about it. As long as Neal is here this is what it is and this board is about Lobo basketball so people are going to talk about it on here.
    That's fine, racer asked a question, I asked a question. Neither got an answer. If it makes you feel better then by all means, continue to repeat yourself infinitely. You are not in control. You are not changing anything this year.

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  26. #14
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you UWSLobo's Avatar
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    I believe he should have been let go after this season, but I will do my best to provide some arguments to keep Neal (at least a few more years):

    1. Neal brings a lot of experience to the table (so it is perplexing why he has not translated that exp to more on court success)
    2. Neal has contacts across the country, so theoretically at least, he has access to more recruits and better qualified assistants.
    3. Neal is one of the first UNM coaches who can recruit players from the east coast and overseas on a consistent basis
    4. I explained on a different thread that three and even four years is not enough time for some brand new coaches to "come into their own." This is perhaps the greatest argument to keep Neal a few more years (when coupled with the good grades his players receive in the class room).
    5. Neal is coaching in a new era of college basketball where the P5 have a stranglehold on the best coaches and the best players, so mid majors have to think of non-traditional ways to win. Neal asserts a lot of non-traditional methods that may eventually translate to success. It may be our only hope for the foreseeable future (see UNLV and countless other teams who have come to this reality).
    6. Neal has shown that with quality players who are developed properly, he can coach them to a winning season, a conference championship, and the NCAAs. His first team's loss to Stanford was not unforeseeable considering that Stanford's top four players are all currently in the NBA.





  27. #15
    Wolf lobofan13's Avatar
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    Tough thread. From a purely on the court perspective, not taking financial considertions into account, with which I am not privy, I can't see many reasons to keep him and I have been a pretty consistent supporter. I do think he is slowly getting better as a head coach, but not enough and he has gotten enough time to make something good happen.
    That being said I shall continue to be positive and supportive. I'll probably keep my season tickets. I don't think that withholding financial support with the idea that will force the hand of the powers that he is helpful. It is illogical to expect that negative activity produces positive result and it just hurts the players and the program as a whole. I'd rather us be known far and wide as fans who support our team no matter what.

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    Donor wolf1960's Avatar
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    a few coaches in the NCAA tournament this yr had 5 losing seasons before they had winning seasons those colleges stuck with their coach. BUT they are not the UNM Lobo fans... We want a winner NOW !!

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  31. #17
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Hoser's Avatar
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    Tough thread for me to contribute but I will throw in a few things.

    1. I think Neal is a little long in the tooth to be learning on the job so I think he tossed a golden opportunity to have a great job as the HC of the Lobos. He just did not produce after that first year with Alford's players.

    2. He seemed to be completely lost when it came to dealing with the public and the press. I think being a HC of a major university requires some inter personal skills to deal with the outside.

    3. His recruiting should have been at a higher level IMO for a coach of his experience.

    Now why should we keep him, well we have already been told he will be back so he basically has one more chance to prove himself, but I think the chips are stacked against him in many areas. He will be fortunate to win half of his games next season, but if he somehow manages to pull out a conference championship then I'm sure he will get another year in the barrel.

    It's all about winning and he has one more chance to do that so he better take advantage of it, and not be a ***** in the process.
    “It’s a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what.”

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  32. #18
    Lobo Lair King MichLobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmccrack View Post
    That's fine, racer asked a question, I asked a question. Neither got an answer. If it makes you feel better then by all means, continue to repeat yourself infinitely. You are not in control. You are not changing anything this year.
    Yeah you got that right, nothing is going to change next year same clueless coach, same apologists desperately in search of new excuses to make for him, same administration wasting millions of hard earned New Mexican dollars.

    But you are sadly mistaken about fans don't matter. When me and several thousand other fans pull our money out a message will be sent. Changes will happen.
    Last edited by MichLobo; 03-19-2017 at 07:30 PM.

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  35. #19
    Lobo Lair King ThreePointShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timvracer View Post
    that's a very fair position. You are basically saying whatever decision "they" make, once it is made you will support it as part of the program.
    Yes, it wasn't the decision I would like to have seen, but since it's been made I will continue to support the program as I have since 1977 and hope for better things in the future. I don't think Neal has been terrible, but the last three years have been mediocre and the Lobos should be doing better.

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  37. #20
    Alpha Lobo bmccrack's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MichLobo;944219]
    Quote Originally Posted by bmccrack View Post
    That's fine, racer asked a question, I asked a question. Neither got an answer. If it makes you feel better then by all means, continue to repeat yourself infinitely. You are not in control. You are not changing anything this year.[/QUOTE

    Yeah you got that right, nothing is going to change next year same clueless coach, same apologists desperately in search of new excuses to make for him, same administration wasting millions of hard earned New Mexican dollars.

    But you are sadly mistaken about fans don't matter. When me and several thousand other fans pull our money out a message will be sent. Changes will happen.
    I did not say that fans don't matter. My statement was that you aren't in control, at least to the degree that you can make a change happen this year.

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  39. #21
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you timvracer's Avatar
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    I am still looking for an argument for why we should keep him. People have tried ad nauseum to say why we should not, and then they get countered with this and that (including personal attack), but I have not heard a lucid argument for why we should keep him.

    I still haven't. Easy to attack those who express a conclusion with an attempt to justify it. Harder to make such an argument. Why don't you try?

    I do appreciate the "didn't think we should keep him, but now I will support him" position. It's at least a clear, and rational position.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmccrack View Post
    Racer, prove to me how this thread is productive given that when 3/31 rolls around Craig Neal will still be the Head Men's Basketball Coach at UNM? Nothing new is being added to the discussion. Most everyone's points are on the fifth go around or more. Do you feel like if the Regents just knew HOW MUCH you want Craig gone something will change?
    -- timvracer --
    "As of Saturday night, it would appear the Mountain West Conference has two NCAA tournament-worthy teams. As long as they can find the remains of one of them."

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  41. #22
    Lobo Lair King MichLobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timvracer View Post
    I am still looking for an argument for why we should keep him. People have tried ad nauseum to say why we should not, and then they get countered with this and that (including personal attack), but I have not heard a lucid argument for why we should keep him.

    I still haven't. Easy to attack those who express a conclusion with an attempt to justify it. Harder to make such an argument. Why don't you try?

    I do appreciate the "didn't think we should keep him, but now I will support him" position. It's at least a clear, and rational position.
    You won't get an answer from them because they can't. "You're a bad fan" "you're not in control" "you hate Neal" that kind of desperation is all Noodles Lovers have left. There is only one person on this entire board who still defends Neal by actually talking about basketball. Even though I think he or she is wrong I respect them for it. The rest of the Noodles apologists use their groan button, try to take shots a the poster or try to make excuses. This is all they have left. Thats what speaks volumes to me about how bad noodles is. When the "positive fans" Don't even defend him anymore they just take shots at you. Then you know that no one in town is left that still believes in this Coach.
    Last edited by MichLobo; 03-19-2017 at 07:32 PM.

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  43. #23
    Donor JulieG's Avatar
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    I think that many people are confused as to whether those who support the program are in some way supporting the coach who to be fair has good points and bad points, he is not black and white, but shades of gray as people and coaches tend to be. I believe based upon performance of his team on the court, which is where it seems that most people judge, has not be what I would have expected or what I expect out of New Mexico Basketball.

    The kicker here and what always has been the issue is that it is more than apparent every day is that we are not makeing that decision, even though we would love this to be a democracy, it is not. It is not the only thing in life that is not either. If I was able vote I would say, "New Coach" which may answer the specific question which this post asked, but as I said previously I don't get a vote and I support the University of New Mexico Basketball Team first and foremost, no matter who the coach is.
    JulieG
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  46. #24
    Alpha Lobo bmccrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichLobo View Post
    You won't get an answer from them because they can't. "You're a bad fan" "you're not in control" "you hate Neal" that kind of desperation is all Noodles Lovers have left. There is only one person on this entire board who still defends Neal by actually talking about basketball. Even though I think he or she is wrong I respect them for it. The rest of the Noodles apologists use their groan button, try to take shots a the poster or try to make excuses. This is all they have left. Thats what speak volumes to me about how bad noodles is. when the "positive fans" Don't even defend him anymore they just take shots at you. Then you know that no one in town is left that still believes in this Coach.
    You call the way you talk to those of differing opions respectful? Not quite.

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    Alpha Lobo bmccrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timvracer View Post
    I am still looking for an argument for why we should keep him. People have tried ad nauseum to say why we should not, and then they get countered with this and that (including personal attack), but I have not heard a lucid argument for why we should keep him.

    I still haven't. Easy to attack those who express a conclusion with an attempt to justify it. Harder to make such an argument. Why don't you try?

    I do appreciate the "didn't think we should keep him, but now I will support him" position. It's at least a clear, and rational position.
    Nothing you or I could say will change anyone's mind. At this point I would consider this argument to be redundant and unproductive given the assumption that Neal will be here through next year at least. That brings me back to my question, what purpose does,this thread serve?

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  49. #26
    Lobo Lair King the_pole_28's Avatar
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    There's not many IMO, I think he should have been fired however if you want me to make a devils advocate case.

    He's fairly new to coaching and Alford did leave him a pretty weak class. Even if Alford didn't bolt, I still think the team 2 years ago would have been pretty bad.

    He's also had lots of issues keeping a deep front court too, some of which isn't his fault.

    In year 2: Losing Cam and Kirk leaving early was always going to be near impossible to replace. All we had was an extremely raw project in Obij and Devon to replace them, since Tim wasn't eligible yet. We turned to The JuCo ranks to plug holes with Goodman and N'Ganga. Goodman was just an all around unfortunate situation, he really seemed like he could have been a matchup nightmare if he was ever healthy. N'Ganga just didn't pan out, now Neal's not blameless if a guy he brings in doesn't translate, but JuCo's are always going to be a bit of a crap shoot and it's understandable if you miss on 1 from time to time.

    In year 3: Tim was eligible which was nice and we also brought in Skecic, but both of our previous JuCo's were now gone. The wheels quickly fell of there when the unfortunate Devon Williams injury happened, and Skecic bolted after about a dozen games. We were once again left with zero front court depth and had to rely on the extremely undersized X to play numerous minutes at the 4.

    In year 4: Front court wasn't that bad this year, but CMac didn't exactly produce as much we thought he would. I think it held up okay for most of the year, but when Tim went down the wheels quickly fell off again and we were once again forced to play an undersized 3 at the 4.

    A hallmark of a successful non p5 school is to bring in decent but not super highly regarded recruits, develop them and then plug in the rest of the roster with good transfers. Neal for the most part has at least done okay with the last part. From what I recall Brown, Williams, Delaney, and Goodman were all pretty highly sought after transfers and Noodles did a good job landing them. 3 of them panned out quite nicely with Goodman always going to be a bit of a question mark on what he could have been. He also got CMac, though I didn't really follow his recruiting so I'm not sure about the buzz he had.

    The front court again looks to be shaky as hell next season, though are some nice freshman coming in. At the 1 through 3 position he has some nice young players too, if he can really help guys like Hunter, Harris, DJ, and Uguak develop there game then maybe not next year but in 2 seasons this team could be good.

    That's my state appointed public defender case.

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  51. #27
    Alpha Lobo bmccrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timvracer View Post
    I am still looking for an argument for why we should keep him. People have tried ad nauseum to say why we should not, and then they get countered with this and that (including personal attack), but I have not heard a lucid argument for why we should keep him.

    I still haven't. Easy to attack those who express a conclusion with an attempt to justify it. Harder to make such an argument. Why don't you try?

    I do appreciate the "didn't think we should keep him, but now I will support him" position. It's at least a clear, and rational position.
    Additionally, it's already been announced that Craig will be here next season. Given that announcement, the burden of proof falls on you. Not to convence me or anyone else on this site of it but the UNM Regents. At that point you do not get to demand proof from me or anyone else because the decision is already made.

  52. #28
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you timvracer's Avatar
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    Do you think anything we discuss here makes a difference? None of us make the decisions, but we discuss everything anyhow (rotations, etc.) - nothing we say here changes what those in power will do.

    My goal is to understand, because I am struggling to understand the "keep him" position. I fully understand the "decision made, I will support it", which usually starts with "if I had a choice, we'd make a change...". I respect that.

    But I don't understand the "keep him/defend him" perspective, typically it is just trying to find fault with the poster, or other ways to avoid making an argument.

    The purpose is the same as any other thread, understanding and discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmccrack View Post
    Nothing you or I could say will change anyone's mind. At this point I would consider this argument to be redundant and unproductive given the assumption that Neal will be here through next year at least. That brings me back to my question, what purpose does,this thread serve?
    -- timvracer --
    "As of Saturday night, it would appear the Mountain West Conference has two NCAA tournament-worthy teams. As long as they can find the remains of one of them."

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  54. #29
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    I will wait to see if he can win without injuries to key players before concluding that he should not be the coach. The recap above by the_pole_28 cannot be ignored as a cause of 3 disappointing seasons. I am hopeful next year that having 2 good experienced PG's will make a difference early in the season when the team can get some momentum and learn to win. Not mentioned above is that losing Jordan Hunter for 3 games probably resulted in 3 lost games when his ankle was injured in the win at SDSU. Kuiper, McDougal and Williams losing games due to concussion protocol also made this past season difficult. Anyone who has coached any sport at any level knows how difficult it is to duplicate the on court or on field chemistry that it takes to win.

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    NT
    Last edited by RedSox87122; 03-19-2017 at 06:40 PM.
    “A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.” - Herm Albright

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