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  1. #61
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msalgado View Post
    Look, if football is losing over 5 million a year then I don't care one bit about staying in the MWC in order to keep football. When I was a student, NO ONE cared about football. I went to nearly every basketball game, a ton of soccer games, but I never gave a crap about football and neither did most of the students I was with. Who wanted to go see a 1 win team coached by Locksley? No thanks.

    As for going into the WAC, I'd be ok with it. The MWC is not really a large step above it, quite frankly. The MWC already gets UNM seen as a mid major, so what does it matter, honestly. You guys are acting like the MWC is the SEC.
    I understand your particular areas of interest and by contrast, myself and my friends could have not cared less about soccer but that's not the real issue. Most would think a drop to the WAC or some other available conference would definitely hurt the quality of our b-ball programs. Other "minor" sports might not have a place/conference in which to compete thus the dropping of football would directly kill some other programs. Again, the other programs would not get the "savings" from football and the TV money for all sports (basketball) would go down thus decreasing the perceived "savings."

    Another thing that should be examined closely is how much of the the "loss" is just on paper as opposed to actual dollars. A huge chunk of the "loss" is in the form of "tuition" - particularly "out of state tuition." The football team and other programs are "charged" on their budget with the normal charge to a student for their tuition and many are classified as out of state; however, adding one more student to a class does not really "cost" the university the full amount of the tuition. There are no real loss of dollars - just a budgetary charge. That supposed $5M figure would drop dramatically (as would the overall athletic deficit) if the actual loss of dollars were counted - don't say those spots could go to other folks that would pay the tuition as UNM is under-occupied and has been for a number of years. Other non-accounted for budget items include donations to the university that are at least to some degree inspired by athletics including football. If no football how much do you reduce the Lobo club donations by or the lettermen's club dues.

    If a real economic analysis were done I would guess that athletics in general and even the football program would show a much more complicated and balanced "bottom line." Even with the poor crowds at football games it still is about the only time you get 20-30,000 New Mexicans together for a common cause in one place - basketball doesn't do it, soccer doesn't come close and neither does just about an other activity. Don't let some simplistic number being thrown around for effect determine the day.
    Last edited by Doublealum; 2 Days Ago at 08:57 AM.

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  3. #62
    The Lobo Lair Chosen RedSox87122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoser View Post
    If the students had a legitimate voice in how their $$ were being spent, then possibly I might agree with you. If the students had a voice in which sports should be funded, then possibly I might agree with you. Right now, the students are paying what amounts to a tax to subsidise something they have no input in how their money is used or spent. Pay up, and shut up, is basically the rule of thumb for them. I have a BA and MA from UNM and I was never once asked how I think my student donations should be used. And don't tell me the student rep is the channel for students to have input, that would be a joke.

    Maybe you should increase your donation to help the cause, or UNM could possibly just make an automatic withdrawal from your money accounts. That might be a good place to start since you don't mind the students being hosed.
    Hoser: Welcome to Life. If, in general, citizens had a legitimate voice in how their $$ were being spent, then possibly I might agree with you. If citizens had a voice in which programs should be funded, then possibly I might agree with you. Right now, citizens are paying what amounts to actual taxes to subsidize things they have no input in how their money is used or spent. Pay up, and shut up, is basically the rule of law in our society. I too have my degrees and never once have I been asked how my taxes should be used. And don’t tell me our Congress reps are a channel for citizens to have input, that would be a joke.

    Congress does make sure you contribute by automatically taking what they feel is their share out of your payroll checks. And, no one cares if you feel you are being hosed.

    BTW - tuition for UNM accounts for many programs, academic disciplines, payroll, maintenance, and capital expenditures that have little to nothing to do with your BA and/or MA - and in most cases your fees/tuition fund those non athletic needs 100%. Athletics departments are vastly self-funded. If this were not the case, imagine how much more that supposed tax you refer to would be.

    I guess if one really detests their Athletic Fee add-ons they could simply avoid them by attending a different institution. Oh Crap - just been reminded - if one did, they would be paying considerably more. In some cases, several times more!!!
    “A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.” - Herm Albright

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  5. #63
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    the reason we are in the football situation we are in is because way back in the lat 50s or early 60s we decided to not invest in football (single platoon football v. 2 platoon) and ever since we have fallen behind. At the time that short sighted "budget" mindset (not including extranalities and actual impact) football was way, way, way, way more popular in NM than b-ball. A decision now to de-emphasize or eliminate football would IMO, doom ALL UNM D1 sports and not add a dime to the academic side of the university and would once again demonstrate how NM finds a way to always be at the bottom.
    Last edited by Doublealum; 2 Days Ago at 11:47 AM.

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  8. #64
    Lobo Dog LoboUtah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msalgado View Post

    As for going into the WAC, I'd be ok with it. The MWC is not really a large step above it, quite frankly. The MWC already gets UNM seen as a mid major, so what does it matter, honestly. You guys are acting like the MWC is the SEC.
    this.
    Last edited by LoboUtah; 2 Days Ago at 10:40 AM.

  9. #65
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you loboaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msalgado View Post
    As for going into the WAC, I'd be ok with it. The MWC is not really a large step above it, quite frankly. The MWC already gets UNM seen as a mid major, so what does it matter, honestly. You guys are acting like the MWC is the SEC.
    Yeah, OK. I'm sure the casual Lobo fans are going to pack the Pit to see them play Chicago St., Missouri-Kansas City, Cal Bakersfield, Texas-Rio Grande Valley, Utah Valley St., and Seattle. Sure, that's just a step below the MW. Average attendance would plummet with that kind of schedule. Besides, the WAC is on life-support anyway, and may not exist much longer. Then what - Big Sky Conference.

    Not to mention, if you drop football, you are going to lose some Lobo fans for good, including I'm sure lots of donations. You may not want to believe that, but I think you would be surprised how many Lobo fans would just give up altogether. I would.

    Maybe the students wouldn't care if football went away, but honestly, students haven't consistently supported any sport at UNM, even basketball, and that's probably only going to get worse in the future because the younger generations don't seem as interested in attending live sporting events anyway. Lobo athletics has always been more community-supported than student-supported. It's unfortunate that students have never supported athletics to a great extent, but that's the way it is.
    Last edited by loboaddict; 2 Days Ago at 10:55 AM.

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  11. #66
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    Free fireworks at all football games will bring them in. It's a little known fact.
    "You haven’t lived until you’ve seen Bonanza dubbed in French-Canadian."

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  13. #67
    The Lobo Lair Chosen RedSox87122's Avatar
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    Loboaddict: Football is not going to go away - period!! Those saying it should are just spouting stupid-talk!!!

    I am beginning to wonder why we even try to reason with someone who believes the WAC and MWC are comparable.
    “A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.” - Herm Albright

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  15. #68
    Lobo Dog LoboUtah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loboaddict View Post
    Yeah, OK. I'm sure the casual Lobo fans are going to pack the Pit to see them play Chicago St., Missouri-Kansas City, Cal Bakersfield, Texas-Rio Grande Valley, Utah Valley St., and Seattle.
    .......Fresno St., San Jose St., Utah St.


    Maybe the students wouldn't care if football went away, but honestly, students haven't consistently supported any sport at UNM, even basketball, and that's probably only going to get worse in the future because the younger generations don't seem as interested in attending live sporting events anyway. Lobo athletics has always been more community-supported than student-supported. It's unfortunate that students have never supported athletics to a great extent, but that's the way it is.
    reason no. 265 UNM will never be P5.

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  17. #69
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you loboaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSox87122 View Post
    I am beginning to wonder why we even try to reason with someone who believes the WAC and MWC are comparable.
    Yeah, I think I'll just give up that battle. It's impossible to reason with people who have made up their mind and aren't willing to consider other facts or points of view.

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  19. #70
    Wise Wolf Bradpal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loboaddict View Post
    Yeah, I think I'll just give up that battle. It's impossible to reason with people who have made up their mind and aren't willing to consider other facts or points of view.
    I’m not for cutting football but it seems your comment applies to people on both sides of this discussion. It also applies to the decision makers who appear have gone for the quickest fix but maybe not the correct fix.

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  21. #71
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you zoom's Avatar
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    ...also applies to the decision makers who appear have gone for the quickest fix but maybe not the correct fix.
    typical of this state...New Mexico is confirmed as a Third World state...


    Trinidad and Tobago 2...USA 1


    US Men's National Team
    Alexi Lalas, "Are you going to continue to be a bunch of soft, underperforming, tattooed millionaires? You are a soccer generation that has been given everything; you are a soccer generation who's on the verge of squandering everything."




  22. #72
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you RIDIC's Avatar
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    "I wouldn't mind going to the WAC."

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    I'm calling Poe's law on this...no Lobo hoops fan can seriously have this opinion.
    FEAR NOTHING!!!!!!!

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  24. #73
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you RIDIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboUtah View Post
    .......Fresno St., San Jose St., Utah St.




    reason no. 265 UNM will never be P5.
    Fresno and USU are FAR superior basketball programs to the ones listed historically. SJSU is on par with them.
    FEAR NOTHING!!!!!!!

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  26. #74
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you RIDIC's Avatar
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    Now, I am all for the football team playing money games in order to subsidize themselves. I think that's a reasonable action to take, at least for the time being. If they get themselves into a position where they don't need to do this, then great.

    That said, getting rid of the program or dropping it to FCS is a horrible idea for all the reasons explained ad nauseum.
    FEAR NOTHING!!!!!!!

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  28. #75
    Lobo Dog LoboUtah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDIC View Post
    Now, I am all for the football team playing money games in order to subsidize themselves.
    This type of thinking proves my argument. Plus, what would we do if P5 schools decide to only play other P5 schools in football?

  29. #76
    Alpha Wolf alamolobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    I understand your particular areas of interest and by contrast, myself and my friends could have not cared less about soccer but that's not the real issue. Most would think a drop to the WAC or some other available conference would definitely hurt the quality of our b-ball programs. Other "minor" sports might not have a place/conference in which to compete thus the dropping of football would directly kill some other programs. Again, the other programs would not get the "savings" from football and the TV money for all sports (basketball) would go down thus decreasing the perceived "savings."

    Another thing that should be examined closely is how much of the the "loss" is just on paper as opposed to actual dollars. A huge chunk of the "loss" is in the form of "tuition" - particularly "out of state tuition." The football team and other programs are "charged" on their budget with the normal charge to a student for their tuition and many are classified as out of state; however, adding one more student to a class does not really "cost" the university the full amount of the tuition. There are no real loss of dollars - just a budgetary charge. That supposed $5M figure would drop dramatically (as would the overall athletic deficit) if the actual loss of dollars were counted - don't say those spots could go to other folks that would pay the tuition as UNM is under-occupied and has been for a number of years. Other non-accounted for budget items include donations to the university that are at least to some degree inspired by athletics including football. If no football how much do you reduce the Lobo club donations by or the lettermen's club dues.

    If a real economic analysis were done I would guess that athletics in general and even the football program would show a much more complicated and balanced "bottom line." Even with the poor crowds at football games it still is about the only time you get 20-30,000 New Mexicans together for a common cause in one place - basketball doesn't do it, soccer doesn't come close and neither does just about an other activity. Don't let some simplistic number being thrown around for effect determine the day.
    There you go using logic which seems lost on a lot of folks.

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  31. #77
    Alpha Wolf alamolobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loboaddict View Post
    Yeah, OK. I'm sure the casual Lobo fans are going to pack the Pit to see them play Chicago St., Missouri-Kansas City, Cal Bakersfield, Texas-Rio Grande Valley, Utah Valley St., and Seattle. Sure, that's just a step below the MW. Average attendance would plummet with that kind of schedule. Besides, the WAC is on life-support anyway, and may not exist much longer. Then what - Big Sky Conference.

    Not to mention, if you drop football, you are going to lose some Lobo fans for good, including I'm sure lots of donations. You may not want to believe that, but I think you would be surprised how many Lobo fans would just give up altogether. I would.

    Maybe the students wouldn't care if football went away, but honestly, students haven't consistently supported any sport at UNM, even basketball, and that's probably only going to get worse in the future because the younger generations don't seem as interested in attending live sporting events anyway. Lobo athletics has always been more community-supported than student-supported. It's unfortunate that students have never supported athletics to a great extent, but that's the way it is.
    Not to be lost in this discussion is that the UNM athletes probably outperform the average students at UNM in the classroom. I am one who would not be as supportive of UNM athletics if those students were not very good students.

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  33. #78
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you RIDIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboUtah View Post
    This type of thinking proves my argument. Plus, what would we do if P5 schools decide to only play other P5 schools in football?
    What does it prove? That the football program loses money? We all know that, and it's completely beside the point. Whether or not P5 schools stop playing others is another red herring. The point you're missing is that cutting football would DESTROY basketball as well as other sports. If you care about Lobo hoops, your position is completely illogical.
    FEAR NOTHING!!!!!!!

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  35. #79
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Hoser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSox87122 View Post
    Hoser: Welcome to Life. If, in general, citizens had a legitimate voice in how their $$ were being spent, then possibly I might agree with you. If citizens had a voice in which programs should be funded, then possibly I might agree with you. Right now, citizens are paying what amounts to actual taxes to subsidize things they have no input in how their money is used or spent. Pay up, and shut up, is basically the rule of law in our society. I too have my degrees and never once have I been asked how my taxes should be used. And don’t tell me our Congress reps are a channel for citizens to have input, that would be a joke.

    Congress does make sure you contribute by automatically taking what they feel is their share out of your payroll checks. And, no one cares if you feel you are being hosed.

    BTW - tuition for UNM accounts for many programs, academic disciplines, payroll, maintenance, and capital expenditures that have little to nothing to do with your BA and/or MA - and in most cases your fees/tuition fund those non athletic needs 100%. Athletics departments are vastly self-funded. If this were not the case, imagine how much more that supposed tax you refer to would be.

    I guess if one really detests their Athletic Fee add-ons they could simply avoid them by attending a different institution. Oh Crap - just been reminded - if one did, they would be paying considerably more. In some cases, several times more!!!
    The point I was trying to make is that the students can't be bailing out athletics when they keep failing to meet budget. Why does UNM have to fund 22 sports? Just saying F it and going to another school is not the point.
    “It’s a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what.”

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  37. #80
    Lobo Dog LoboUtah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDIC View Post
    What does it prove?
    If you think your school's football team has to play multiple P5 teams each season just to get money to try and break even because no one in New Mexico cares about football- then your football program is probably busch league.
    Last edited by LoboUtah; 12 Hours Ago at 05:19 PM.

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