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  1. #31
    Donor JulieG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoser View Post
    I have a feeling this guy is going to be a bull of a guard. Lobos have been missing a strong guard who can shoot for a while.
    It seems to me that McNeal was in that mold, however it is nice to have someone who wants to be here.
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  3. #32
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trufan View Post
    You are really jumping to conclusions ! For goodness sake, none of us know the details of what was involved. Give Weir and the coaching staff a little bit of credit. So far they have acted with a lot of integrity and, in my opinion, have demanded the same of their team.
    Where have I jumped to any conclusions - I think you are doing that with my take without seeing or remembering my previous posts on the subject. I said several times that it certainly doesn't look like Agee was forced out - it looks like he couldn't get in academically. I'm talking about general principles not any specific situation or coach. If I'm not able to so express those opinions then so be it but I have not jumped to any conclusions at all. As for Weir, I don't know how he is approaching this and have drawn absolutely no hard opinions or conclusions and unless or until there is convincing evidence otherwise, I am assuming he is dong it the right way. What I did say is that IF UNR is succeeding without ethics (again, I have no evidence this is true) then notwithstanding their success on the court, I don't want to emulate them and that is just my opinon.

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  5. #33
    Donor MaxLobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    Where have I jumped to any conclusions - I think you are doing that with my take without seeing or remembering my previous posts on the subject. I said several times that it certainly doesn't look like Agee was forced out - it looks like he couldn't get in academically. I'm talking about general principles not any specific situation or coach. If I'm not able to so express those opinions then so be it but I have not jumped to any conclusions at all. As for Weir, I don't know how he is approaching this and have drawn absolutely no hard opinions or conclusions and unless or until there is convincing evidence otherwise, I am assuming he is dong it the right way. What I did say is that IF UNR is succeeding without ethics (again, I have no evidence this is true) then notwithstanding their success on the court, I don't want to emulate them and that is just my opinon.
    Agree. The other aspect is that programs that operate 'just above the line' seem to have shorter periods of success. I'm all for building a sustainable product (Gonzaga, Butler, etc.) and that, to some degree, requires a clean, ethical, decent program. From what I've seen I think Weir can fulfill that...but his tenure is just beginning so we'll see how things continue to evolve.

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  7. #34
    Donor LoboMike's Avatar
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    2019-20 lineup...

    PG McGee - juco national MVP
    SG Martin - 20 ppg DI scorer
    SF Lyle - 5 star recruit
    PF Jackson - 4 star recruit
    C Bragg - 5 star recruit, McD's AA

    Will have plenty of other guys to plug in if Jaquan, Vance or Bragg leaves for the league. Makuach may be a likely one in any top five anyway. Should be a ultra-experienced team either way. Superb depth to run Weir's sytem.

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  10. #35
    Wolf trufan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    Where have I jumped to any conclusions - I think you are doing that with my take without seeing or remembering my previous posts on the subject. I said several times that it certainly doesn't look like Agee was forced out - it looks like he couldn't get in academically. I'm talking about general principles not any specific situation or coach. If I'm not able to so express those opinions then so be it but I have not jumped to any conclusions at all. As for Weir, I don't know how he is approaching this and have drawn absolutely no hard opinions or conclusions and unless or until there is convincing evidence otherwise, I am assuming he is dong it the right way. What I did say is that IF UNR is succeeding without ethics (again, I have no evidence this is true) then notwithstanding their success on the court, I don't want to emulate them and that is just my opinon.
    Let’s just say you are making some pretty heavy insinuations that, in my opinion, are not fair unless you know specifics.

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  12. #36
    The Lobo Lair Chosen RedSox87122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    but for me (not speaking for you or anyone else) selling your sole and or principles is truly not an option - if we can't be successful without lying and misleading kids and their parents . . . or for me to embrace hypocrisy.
    I have had a lengthy conversations with Weir about recruiting, and I can assure you that no one is selling their soul and/or lying to kids and their parents. No hypocrisy - unless one were to think that recruiting only works one direction. Kids and their parents work the process as well - and, changing rules make it easier for them to do so.

    Rosters are extremely fluent today. Coaches are adapting, kids and their parents are adapting, guess it’s time for us old-timers to adapt as well.
    “A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.” - Herm Albright

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  14. #37
    All Lobo Lair hobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    There are always options (schollie waivers, coach salary reductions, larger fan contributions - who knows) but for me (not speaking for you or anyone else) selling your sole and or principles is truly not an option - if we can't be successful without lying and misleading kids and their parents, then its just not worth it to me. I am not saying at all that is what is happening with Agee (see above) - just talking in general regarding college athletics and life. While I love Lobo b-ball, football and sports in general, they are not worth the integrity of my Alma Mater or for me to embrace hypocrisy.
    I hope you are not speaking for me. Why would anyone sell their their shoe sole (or fish (sole))? And what does a sole have to do with principles? I hope as a double alum and for the integrity of my Alma Mater, you didn't mean soul?

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  17. #38
    Wolf trufan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSox87122 View Post
    I have had a lengthy conversations with Weir about recruiting, and I can assure you that no one is selling their soul and/or lying to kids and their parents. No hypocrisy - unless one were to think that recruiting only works one direction. Kids and their parents work the process as well - and, changing rules make it easier for them to do so.

    Rosters are extremely fluent today. Coaches are adapting, kids and their parents are adapting, guess it’s time for us old-timers to adapt as well.
    Couldn’t agree more. I have had similar conversations with Coach Weir

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  19. #39
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you txlobo95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoboMike View Post
    2019-20 lineup...

    PG McGee - juco national MVP
    SG Martin - 20 ppg DI scorer
    SF Lyle - 5 star recruit
    PF Jackson - 4 star recruit
    C Bragg - 5 star recruit, McD's AA

    Will have plenty of other guys to plug in if Jaquan, Vance or Bragg leaves for the league. Makuach may be a likely one in any top five anyway. Should be a ultra-experienced team either way. Superb depth to run Weir's sytem.
    Agreed, not likely to lose all 3 to the draft. Might lose 1, possibly 2 at most, however, Bragg, will most likely need to show the league for more than one year that he will have the work ethic and mental capacity to stay in the league and be able to have a "pro" mentality and work ethic.

    You have MM as a super 6th man that could be a starter if any left as well as DD, as he will have his frosh year behind him, so he will have the experience necessary to take his game to next level. The jucos will have a year under their belt, so we should have quality play from them as well. Next 2 years we looked well stocked.

    Hopefully, this will become a program that reloads rather than rebuilding, always having players waiting in the wings to take over and have the ability to be big time starters. Martin, clearly, appears to be one of those type of players.

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  21. #40
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you UNMerciful_1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    There are always options (schollie waivers, coach salary reductions, larger fan contributions - who knows) but for me (not speaking for you or anyone else) selling your sole and or principles is truly not an option - if we can't be successful without lying and misleading kids and their parents, then its just not worth it to me. I am not saying at all that is what is happening with Agee (see above) - just talking in general regarding college athletics and life. While I love Lobo b-ball, football and sports in general, they are not worth the integrity of my Alma Mater or for me to embrace hypocrisy.
    Your use of the phrase “lying and misleading” is loaded. What if coaches are telling players that we expect you to progress in a certain manner. If you don’t, we’ll get someone who will. I expect most coaches communicate this to recruits. So in this scenario would you have a problem with a coach replacing a player who he feels isn’t living up to his end of the bargain?

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  23. #41
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNMerciful_1 View Post
    Your use of the phrase “lying and misleading” is loaded. What if coaches are telling players that we expect you to progress in a certain manner. If you don’t, we’ll get someone who will. I expect most coaches communicate this to recruits. So in this scenario would you have a problem with a coach replacing a player who he feels isn’t living up to his end of the bargain?
    if that is what they are saying maybe but it is my experience that what they (especially the parents) are told is that they will take care of them, their education is paramount along with player development (unless they are a one & done type). I have not heard of any, if we can find someone better than you regardless of your effort, good behavior, being a good teammate and good academics, we will replace you. Again, I'm not saying this is what is happening here - I don't know and won't presume it just because some kids are transferring but if that happens anywhere, I wouldn't support it even if it meant victories on the court. I hope/think I have been clear but some want to take words out of context or imply meanings taht I have specifically said aren't my opinion and I suspect it is because they don't want to think about it but I don't know that for sure either. I have stated my preferences and stick by them but I recognize others have different takes - fine.

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  25. #42
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobo View Post
    I hope you are not speaking for me. Why would anyone sell their their shoe sole (or fish (sole))? And what does a sole have to do with principles? I hope as a double alum and for the integrity of my Alma Mater, you didn't mean soul?
    yes, i misspelled so sorry and no i'm not speaking for anyone else - just my opinion. I did mean soul.

  26. #43
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trufan View Post
    Let’s just say you are making some pretty heavy insinuations that, in my opinion, are not fair unless you know specifics.
    i am making NO insinuations - i have stated the opposite for example about Agee (perhaps some are sensitive because they are a bit suspicious but don't want to think about it - I don't know). I have said I don't know but if that is happening, then I don't support it no matter how many wins wherever it happens (not necessarily NM). that is all.

  27. #44
    Lobo Lair King LoneLobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobojunkie View Post
    We are loaded
    Weir loaded!

    :)
    GO LOBOS!





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  29. #45
    All Lobo Lair hobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    yes, i misspelled so sorry and no i'm not speaking for anyone else - just my opinion. I did mean soul.
    Now that's misleading and could be lying.

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  32. #46
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobo View Post
    Now that's misleading and could be lying.
    little sensitive - whatever, said what I meant & meant what I said despite a spelling error.

  33. #47
    The Lobo Lair Chosen RedSox87122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    if that is what they are saying maybe but it is my experience that what they (especially the parents) are told is that they will take care of them, their education is paramount along with player development (unless they are a one & done type). I have not heard of any, if we can find someone better than you regardless of your effort, good behavior, being a good teammate and good academics, we will replace you. Again, I'm not saying this is what is happening here - I don't know and won't presume it just because some kids are transferring but if that happens anywhere, I wouldn't support it even if it meant victories on the court. I hope/think I have been clear but some want to take words out of context or imply meanings taht I have specifically said aren't my opinion and I suspect it is because they don't want to think about it but I don't know that for sure either. I have stated my preferences and stick by them but I recognize others have different takes - fine.
    I have little doubt that any coach, even pushing academics and player development, but whose job is dependent on success, will be faced with sitting down a player at times (and perhaps their parents) and explaining that conditions have changed since the initial recruitment. Most players at higher levels want to play, not sit - and if that means transferring elsewhere, then most will make the move. It’s common in every program - thus, most coaches work with others to facilitate moves. We have had kids leave, and to my knowledge, most with any talent are still playing - even Agee.

    Again - let’s not forgot that today parents are also expecting to watch their kid play. I know I do whenever I attend one of my son’s games. And, my son also wants to play. So, faced with sitting or finding a place with more potential minutes . . . .

    Let me put it another way - in today’s open media - how often do we read about a player coming out and saying I was totally lied to. I was promised that I was going to be looked after and guaranteed a roster spot - and suddenly everything was ripped away from me. Honestly, I can’t remember a time I read such statements - but, my memory isn’t what it used to be either.

    We do agree - no one (at least no one I know) wants a shady program with shady coaches. I do believe, however, we really don’t need to be concerned.

    P.S. Before my initial response, I made sure to ask my wife about the whole “soul/sole” spelling debate. Wow - can’t believe a misspell has become such an issue. Misspell or not - I enjoy your takes - and, glad I never screw up.
    Last edited by RedSox87122; 1 Week Ago at 06:16 PM.
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  35. #48
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSox87122 View Post
    I have little doubt that any coach, even pushing academics and player development, but whose job is dependent on success, will be faced with sitting down a player at times (and perhaps their parents) and explaining that conditions have changed since the initial recruitment. Most players at higher levels want to play, not sit - and if that means transferring elsewhere, then most will make the move. It’s common in every program - thus, most coaches work with others to facilitate moves. We have had kids leave, and to my knowledge, most with any talent are still playing - even Agee.

    Again - let’s not forgot that today parents are also expecting to watch their kid play. I know I do whenever I attend one of my son’s games. And, my son also wants to play. So, faced with sitting or finding a place with more potential minutes . . . .

    Let me put it another way - in today’s open media - how often do we read about a player coming out and saying I was totally lied to. I was promised that I was going to be looked after and guaranteed a roster spot - and suddenly everything was ripped away from me. Honestly, I can’t remember a time I read such statements - but, my memory isn’t what it used to be either.
    as I have previously said, if the player decides he/she wants to move on for whatever reason (including PT) then it is what it is - that is not what I'm talking about. I am confident that most kids when they are being recruited are told the coaching staff sees a big role for them & their parents are assured their child will be taken care of and often that includes academics AND they speak of four years not one. Assuming that is the case and I am very confident it is true based on some first hand knowledge, if as opposed to the situation when a kid just gets "beat out" for significant PT, the coach feels he can bring someone in better & pushes hard on the kid to leave to make room (we all know when we are not wanted), that is when I feel it is the coach that should leave, not the kid.

    Again, I'm not saying that is happening here or anywhere in particular (although I have seen it happen in the past). I hope I have made the distinction clear - if not, I apologize but I think I've done what I can through posts on a message board & I'll just let it be unless I see actual evidence that it is happening at UNM in any sport. I continue to support UNM athletics and academics with some of my money, whatever little influence I might have with those who are willing to listen, my attendance at many events and lending my professional efforts to UNM.


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  37. #49
    Pup LOBO2013's Avatar
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    How about we get this thread back to welcoming Zane!! Congratulations on your decision to be a Lobo and I look forward to watching you next year!!! Go Lobos!!!


  38. #50
    The Lobo Lair Chosen RedSox87122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublealum View Post
    Assuming that is the case and I am very confident it is true based on some first hand knowledge, if as opposed to the situation when a kid just gets "beat out" for significant PT, the coach feels he can bring someone in better & pushes hard on the kid to leave to make room (we all know when we are not wanted), that is when I feel it is the coach that should leave, not the kid.

    We may just have to disagree. Funny thing about sports - a coach doesn’t have to push hard to get a player to transfer - all that is needed is pine time. As you say - “we all know when we are not wanted”. I can assure you, 99% of the time when a player mostly sits and stays, it’s because the coach has told the player how much they are wanted, and PT doesn’t matter.

    My son didn’t make a team he tried out for last fall (coaches made their decisions). When he wasn’t chosen - I told him - sports are life. You are not guaranteed a spot on any team, or a job with any company. You want a spot - you must work harder than the next guy. Still - at times - you will be forced to look elsewhere. If that time arises - it only means you have been given a new opportunity. And, often new opportunities are the far better ones. Personally, I believe we do a disservice to our kids if we let them feel they are entitled!!

    He consequently joined another team that really wanted him. Boom - he thrived - just had the best tournament of his life, lead his team to a championship, and was named MVP.

    Here’s hoping Agee, McNeal, Simons, Simmons, and MacDougall become MVP’s for their new teams.

    And, Zane - welcome to your new team. Can’t wait to watch you play!!
    Last edited by RedSox87122; 1 Week Ago at 07:12 PM.
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  40. #51
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Doublealum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSox87122 View Post
    We may just have to disagree. Funny thing about sports - a coach doesn’t have to push hard to get a player to transfer - all that is needed is pine time. As you say - “we all know when we are not wanted”. I can assure you, 99% of the time when a player mostly sits and stays, it’s because the coach has told the player how much they are wanted, and PT doesn’t matter.

    My son didn’t make a team he tried out for last fall (coaches made their decisions). When he wasn’t chosen - I told him - sports are life. You are not guaranteed a spot on any team, or a job with any company. You want a spot - you must work harder than the next guy. Still - at times - you will be forced look elsewhere. If that time arises - it only means you have been given a new opportunity. And, often new opportunities are the far better ones. Personally, I believe we do a disservice to our kids if we let them feel they are entitled!!

    He consequently joined another team that really wanted him. Boom - he thrived - just had the best tournament of his life, lead his team to a championship, and was named MVP.

    Here’s hoping Agee, McNeal, Simons, Simmons, and MacDougall become MVP’s for their new teams.
    i obviously didn't make my distinction clear (my bad I guess). Your examples are not what I'm talking about but I'm fine with just saying we disagree.

  41. #52
    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you Scott's Avatar
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    Picking up Zane is very exciting for future Lobo Basketball. Welcome Zane! I hope you have a great experience as a member of the LoboNation. Make the most of the opportunity on and off the court.

    As for players coming and going, maybe being nudged out etc. I'm in agreement with Double when he says mid major programs can be successful with less of a revolving door and more long term commitment from both player and coaching staff. It makes for more continuity, and longevity in a successful program. It's only reasonable to think an institution should make a commitment to a player that is equal to the commitment the school expects from the player in return.

    I also have to agree with Hoser when he says the high turnover is a new reality in many parts of college hoops. That's an adjustment for me as a fan, and it is for others as well. Still it seems I'd better learn to be less surprised with higher player turnover, at least to some degree. I can adapt grudgingly to that as long as our program doesn't become one that chooses to win at all costs. I don't see that as likely but should that become the case, I'd have to take a step back and reevaluate things.

    All that said, I don't see coach as one to take a player's commitment lightly or as one to take advantage of a player while looking for someone to replace him. I do see coach as highly driven and competitive, as someone who sets a high expectation and doesn't bend much once it's set. He communicates pretty clearly about that. He also communicates that when a player finds out what it's really like once practice and workouts start, sometimes they might find it's not for them. Coach has stated that as a reason to continue to keep his recruiting eye open should an opening come up. I have no idea if this was in the mix with Agee, and academics may have been the core issue, but I do believe that on occasion we'll see a player bow out due to the sometimes grueling expectations of the program.

    I'm very excited as a fan, to root for and watch our Lobos develop in coming years. I'm hopeful for a program that develops continuity and loyalty between coaches and players, all of them working toward goals in the classroom and in life..... as well as on the court. Go Lobos.
    Last edited by Scott; 1 Week Ago at 07:59 PM.

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  43. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JulieG View Post
    It seems to me that McNeal was in that mold, however it is nice to have someone who wants to be here.
    I can see the comparison. One big difference is of course height. Zane is listed at 6’4 vs 5’11 for Mcneal. Zane appears to be more physical, aggressive and hard nosed. He can definitely finish in traffic and through contact. I’m excited to see him in action.

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    Donor JulieG's Avatar
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    Actually McNeal was 6'1, but I think that Troy at 6'3 and 200 makes even a better point. In both cases I didn't like the turnover, but it was it is.
    JulieG
    Loyal Lobo fan since 1962


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    Zane is listed as a 2, not a pg when I checked online.

    In general, I think the 13 man roster is a bit deep for gameplay, but needed for practice and development. The practicing transfer solves both issues

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    Its Mr Lobo Lair to you mdanger007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippyboi View Post
    Zane is listed as a 2, not a pg when I checked online.

    In general, I think the 13 man roster is a bit deep for gameplay, but needed for practice and development. The practicing transfer solves both issues
    Zane averaged 18.8 pts and 2.7 assists. Not point guard numbers. Did Weir tell Zane he'd be more of a distributor at New Mexico? Probably not.


    But PG/SG/F/PF/C... these are antiquated classifications: As RedSox says, it's time to get with the times: The best 5 guys are gonna get 40% of the playing time, then next 5 30%...and uhh more math after that.






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    I also want to welcome Zane and this thread was what it was all about! It was hijacked and that is a shame, why don't posters start a new thread to gripe about how players "may", or "might be" treated. I thought the biggest and most meaningful quote was, actually "I don't know" , that should have stopped all of those threads and left the post for Lobo fans to welcome Zane!!!
    Start your own post and those that want can agree or not, but, those who want can just go on to a Lobo Lair post and enjoy, I would happily leave you to your own post!


    The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.


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    Would hope program places emphasis on frosh recruiting....realize now in first year or so trying to build a roster what is happening...JC's , 4 yr transfers, you may scrounge around a bit.. …

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoops View Post
    Would hope program places emphasis on frosh recruiting....realize now in first year or so trying to build a roster what is happening...JC's , 4 yr transfers, you may scrounge around a bit.. …
    I think the emphasis should be getting the best players for the program, regardless of where or how they get them. To me, it's also about balancing your classes. If you have a bunch of turnover at the top because guys leave the program for various reason, you don't want a bunch of inexperienced freshman leading the team.

    I know many fans want to see guys play all four years at an institution, but in today's world, that is becoming less and less common.

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    Not only less common, but nigh impossible. What's the average right now, two transfers off every D1 team last year? You can't backfill those losses with freshmen, not at the G5 level and probably not at the P5 level. You're going to be pulling some transfers and JC's for their experience.


 

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